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I would like the PGA Tour to have easier courses - Page 2

post #19 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by dnaygs View Post
 


I wouldn't say it's easy to shoot -40 or better over 4 days on any course, for any person.

 

You've made this argument a couple times.  (I have no idea why your second reply doesn't show up when I quote it.)  In my opinion, the score is irrelevant.  If the everyone is playing driver-wedge-putt, driver-wedge-putt, then there's nothing interesting going on.  You may as well just watch them try to out-drive each other at the practice range.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dnaygs View Post
 

I totally get that most people seem to find it boring (although I don't).  All I'm saying is that there would still be a challenge.  Instead of the course presenting the challenge, the players would be challenging each other.  Like I said before, even on a super easy course, if someone shoots -49 over four days and you have to shoot -50, that's still a challenge.

 

It's like bowling.  It's very easy for a professional to throw a strike.  But if the guy next to you just had 11 in a row and you have to have 12 to win, that's when it gets tough. 

 

Competitive golf is both player-versus-course and player-versus-player and that's when it's interesting.  And you know full well that if two guys are in contention, their performance puts pressure on the other guy especially when they're in the same group on the final day.  

post #20 of 33
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by krupa View Post

 

 

Competitive golf is both player-versus-course and player-versus-player and that's when it's interesting.  

It's both player-versus-course and player-versus-player now, but I'm saying I'd like to see that change.  I want to see less player-versus-course and more player-versus-player.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by krupa View Post
 

 

  If the everyone is playing driver-wedge-putt, driver-wedge-putt, then there's nothing interesting going on.  

 

 

First of all, I would find this interesting.  Second, you make it sound like everyone would be 18 under every day, so there would be a 100 way tie at -72 after 4 days.  If you think it would be that easy, then maybe my -40 or -50 estimates were off, and the top two guys would be -71 and -72, sounds good to me.

post #21 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by dnaygs View Post
 

It's both player-versus-course and player-versus-player now, but I'm saying I'd like to see that change.  I want to see less player-versus-course and more player-versus-player.

 

 

First of all, I would find this interesting.  Second, you make it sound like everyone would be 18 under every day, so there would be a 100 way tie at -72 after 4 days.  If you think it would be that easy, then maybe my -40 or -50 estimates were off, and the top two guys would be -71 and -72, sounds good to me.

Clearly we'll never agree on this.  I just want to say that there's a reason no one remembers straight drives into the fairway or routine approach shots to the green but over 30 years later we still think about shots like this http://www.golf.com/video/us-open-moments-watsons-chip-1982

post #22 of 33
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by krupa View Post
 

Clearly we'll never agree on this.  I just want to say that there's a reason no one remembers straight drives into the fairway or routine approach shots to the green but over 30 years later we still think about shots like this http://www.golf.com/video/us-open-moments-watsons-chip-1982


You're right, and I don't expect everyone to agree with me that I would find it interesting.  Just that it's not easier to win a tournament on an easier course if you're playing against the same players.

post #23 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfisher View Post



I agree with the above, conversely winning scores of -22 or greater I found uneventfull and yes boring


Actually let me clarify that tournaments that have a weather (wind, rain and temperature) element to it also makes things interesting and challenges the golfer's strategy and skill set.  But since we can not predict the weather I still  prefer challenging courses, tough pins, slick greens and thick rough.

 

One tourney that comes to mind was the US Open at Shinnicock, where Reteif Goosen  on burnt hard fast greens, strong prevailing winds, sunny with hot summer temps. Despite the conditions, clearly he played better, especially putting and he won. (Phil was second I believe)

post #24 of 33
Thread Starter 


I totally understand why people find it more interesting to watch players play a difficult course.  But is it more impressive?  Watching someone shoot 18 under on a super easy course might be boring, but does that make it easy?

post #25 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by dnaygs View Post
 


I totally understand why people find it more interesting to watch players play a difficult course.  But is it more impressive?  Watching someone shoot 18 under on a super easy course might be boring, but does that make it easy?

Well look at this way, another individual sport is Alpine ski racing, downhill for example would you prefer an beginner/intermediate trail for the race? The same holds true for the different stages of the tour de france. The open championship where weather wind and cold temps, pot bunkers and bump and runs define how its played- its challenging. 

 

Flat, open,palm tree lined- much of Florida, makes for boring professional golf to watch for me personally.

post #26 of 33
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfisher View Post
 

Well look at this way, another individual sport is Alpine ski racing, downhill for example would you prefer an beginner/intermediate trail for the race? The same holds true for the different stages of the tour de france. The open championship where weather wind and cold temps, pot bunkers and bump and runs define how its played- its challenging. 

 

Flat, open,palm tree lined- much of Florida, makes for boring professional golf to watch for me personally.

Boring or not is irrelevant now, I know nobody will agree with me on that which is fine.  I'm just saying Flat, open, palm tree lined golf might be boring for you to watch, but it's not more or less challenging to win a tournament.  It might be less challenging to make par, but not less challenging to win.  You still have to play better than everyone else.

 

In alpine skiing, they could hold it on the bunny slope and it would be just as challenging to win, just a different type of challenge.  You still have to go faster than everyone else.

post #27 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by dnaygs View Post
 


I totally understand why people find it more interesting to watch players play a difficult course.  But is it more impressive? But is it more impressive?  Watching someone shoot 18 under on a super easy course might be boring, but does that make it easy?

 

I think it's more impressive because on a difficult course there's less you can "get away" with. Take this week for example, there are going to be a lot of shots where these guys have to execute or they're working their ass off to save par. You want to have a course/setup that identifies the best player(s) and tests all facets of their game. The types of conditions you are proposing don't really do that. Not saying that shooting -30 for four rounds is "easy" but I would say, for the best players, it's easier than shooting even par in a US Open.

post #28 of 33

I think that Pros should be rewarded for hitting good shots and REALLY punished for bad shots.

 

Risk vs reward shots should be VERY penal....

 

If a player is hitting fairways and GIRs, then that's cool and equivalent for the OPs purpose.  We call it 'boring golf'.  but it's fun to see someone play in regulation and better and clean.  When they play that way, then it doesn't really matter if the layout is difficult or not, they are throwing darts on every shot and only the greens really spread the field.  (it's how Jim F can play to 59 on a day when everyone else is struggling.....)

 

Take that idea, and if the rough is crap and there are a lot of trees and edges full of hazards, then that also separates the great players in how they handle recovery from mishits.  So they get rewarded extra good for only a 'great' recovery shot, not just a satisfactory recovery.

 

Tricky and sneaky greens I'm not as impressed with and that seems to be the dividing line from the birdie-fests vs the even par rounds.....even there, that also reward not just GIR, but GIR in the precisely right place for that pin.......so that's worth it too.

 

either way, if they are all playing the same course in the same conditions, it doesn't matter to me, it's less about the player vs the course for me, it's about the players vs each other....

 

 

course design is HARD.........pros have various strong and weak points vs each other and trying to design an equivalent challenge for all the players is near-impossible....

post #29 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by dnaygs View Post
 

I would like to see the pros play on easier courses.  I get bored watching them make pars and bogeys on extremely difficult courses.  I can't really appreciate how hard the course is by watching it on TV.  To me it's much more exciting when they're making a lot of birdies and eagles.  I'd like to see a tournament on a simple, relatively short course, with relatively flat greens which aren't super fast and easy pin placements.  I apologize if this has been discussed before.  I'm not talking about pros having to play in our normal public crappy conditions with roots and holes all over the course.  Just everything in good shape and easy.  It's not like the tournament would be easy to win just because the course is easy, you still have to play better than everyone else.  Maybe the winner would be 30 or 40 under, maybe more.  I think it would be more exciting, what do you think?

 

I think you'll turn what is already dull TV into a total bore.  I only watch the majors now, and only because the players have to actually play good golf to score low.  I guess all you want to see is driver-wedge boredom.  I want to see shots being made.  

 

Most of the PGA Tour courses are already too easy for the pros.  I can't see any good reason to go any farther down that road.

post #30 of 33

I like to see the pros hit shots that I have no chance of hitting.  

 

Even I have the ability to stick a wedge shot close from 110 every now and then.  I can't come close to hitting an iron 240 yards though.

post #31 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by dnaygs View Post
 

No, YOU want to see variety, I want to see birdies and eagles.  An amazing risky shot can be entertaining to me sometimes.  But I'm more amused when someone sticks it to 2 feet from the middle of the fairway.  I don't even really care about a good putt most of the time.  I rarely watch golf live so I can fast forward through all the stuff I find boring (like putting and saving par or bogey), not that other people can't enjoy it.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but so is everyone else - and not many agree with you.

post #32 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by dnaygs View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfisher View Post
 

Well look at this way, another individual sport is Alpine ski racing, downhill for example would you prefer an beginner/intermediate trail for the race? The same holds true for the different stages of the tour de france. The open championship where weather wind and cold temps, pot bunkers and bump and runs define how its played- its challenging. 

 

Flat, open,palm tree lined- much of Florida, makes for boring professional golf to watch for me personally.

Boring or not is irrelevant now, I know nobody will agree with me on that which is fine.  I'm just saying Flat, open, palm tree lined golf might be boring for you to watch, but it's not more or less challenging to win a tournament.  It might be less challenging to make par, but not less challenging to win.  You still have to play better than everyone else.

 

In alpine skiing, they could hold it on the bunny slope and it would be just as challenging to win, just a different type of challenge.  You still have to go faster than everyone else.

 

Boring is absolutely relevant.  The TV networks aren't going to pay big bucks for boring, they are paying for entertainment.  18 birdies isn't entertaining - it's the dictionary definition of tediously boring.  Golf on TV, and the PGA Tour would die a quick death if they ever instituted such a policy.  They are close enough to that now with so many courses encouraging an uninspiring bomb and gouge playing style.

post #33 of 33
Brown Deer, En-Joie, Poppy Hills: these were easy courses that have hosted PGA Tour events. They also had reputations for being poorly maintained, and player polls consistently rated them as the worst courses they played all year. Not coincidentally, none of those courses host PGA Tour events anymore.

In general, I don't think the best golfers in the world want to play easy courses. It's cheap, and top-tier players tend to avoid such tournaments. When a course begins to earn such a reputation, it usually means it's time for a renovation or a change of venue.
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