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How Accurate Are Radar Numbers Anyway? Not Quite Buying It... - Page 2

post #19 of 57
Thread Starter 
Never heard of him.... That guy and his buddy Schoen are taking over and shaking things up ...haha. So much drama in the LBC it's kind hard being Snoop DO double G . I'm interested to learn about this face angle study
post #20 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nevets88 View Post

Brossard:

https://www.facebook.com/TrackmanSD
https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash2/t1.0-9/p370x247/1001759_518206751567411_886266605_n.jpg
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/damon-brossard/63/788/6ba

Okay, let's hear what he has to say:

http://www.radarprecisiongolf.com/

Dead link, doh! Everything about TM on is FB page is already available on the official Trackman pdfs.
I found him on another site... lol... he goes by another name on GOLFWRX there s a guy named putter killed I think that's him.
post #21 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wangus94 View Post

... a bunch of them pooping up around here now.

Now that's a Freudian slip.
post #22 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvmac View Post

Bob is an instructor I know in SD that recently got a Trackman. 

Brossard has trolled this site a few times. @iacas
 and I had to correct him a couple times on stuff he got wrong.

OK I got the real scoop and understand better now haha... found and talked to the guy ( weird thing is ... You're his friend on the other site?) Makes a lot more sense now this radar thing. Finally got some real info thank god.
post #23 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wangus94 View Post


OK I got the real scoop and understand better now haha... found and talked to the guy ( weird thing is ... You're his friend on the other site?) 

 

No, I'm not friends with on FB. 

post #24 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvmac View Post


No, I'm not friends with on FB. 
I was looking for some answer about face angle and how it's derived since no one has any kind of solid answer and he explained in a way that makes sense to me. Your pic is on his WRX page as a friend so not sure why you're bashing the guy. I guess a lot of the Trackman stuff is BS rumors
post #25 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wangus94 View Post


I was looking for some answer about face angle and how it's derived since no one has any kind of solid answer and he explained in a way that makes sense to me. Your pic is on his WRX page as a friend so not sure why you're bashing the guy. I guess a lot of the Trackman stuff is BS rumors

 

Not bashing the guy, just telling you what has happened on here. 

post #26 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wangus94 View Post

Wanted some actual experiences related to face readings from people who have spent time on these units. Don't suspect many here have.

 

And has been typical, you'd be wrong about that. As I said, we've done plenty of testing with a Phantom camera, have or do currently own five different models of FlightScope and TrackMans, etc.

 

It's not a complex subject. They have a formula based on center contact that is rather accurate at saying what the face was at impact. And… if you toe it, that gives "bad numbers" that any experienced radar user should know how to read. A toe hit might say +5° face with a path +2° but with a spin axis of -4°… hence, easy to see that was a toe hit.

post #27 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

And has been typical, you'd be wrong about that. As I said, we've done plenty of testing with a Phantom camera, have or do currently own five different models of FlightScope and TrackMans, etc.

It's not a complex subject. They have a formula based on center contact that is rather accurate at saying what the face was at impact. And… if you toe it, that gives "bad numbers" that any experienced radar user should know how to read. A toe hit might say +5° face with a path +2° but with a spin axis of -4°… hence, easy to see that was a toe hit.
Already got all the info I needed .. Thx:-D
post #28 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wangus94 View Post


Already got all the info I needed .. Thx:-D

Don't suppose you'd like to share what you learned?

post #29 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post

Don't suppose you'd like to share what you making an education learned?
Sure... I assume I'll be critiqued lol but this what I got. The face is calculated because the radar can't see it. The radar does this buy taking the launch direction of the golf ball against the target and then factoring in the clubs path and speed at which it's moving. Basically same deal with loft. Directly measures vertical launch of the golf ball then factors in angle of attack, speed and uses a formula to calculate what the face and loft must be based on these variables. There's concern how accurate these numbers really are when hit on the toe or heel because if the ball takes off in a different direction than the path, like left or closed, than the face would have to be closed to the path as well. If the ball was curving the opposite way however, than the machines guesses how much the club rotated or geared at the moment the ball was taking off the face. It's making an educated guess based off where the ball starts it's line and working backwards.
These things basically assume center hits and if you make a swing from the inside say. You swing +5 degrees to the right, the ball starts +3 degrees right and has a negative spin axis to it ... than the strike had to be center. No one knows if the sweet spot was hit there because the reading is calculated as the ball is leaving and hard to say if club geared to that orientation or was struck there.
post #30 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wangus94 View Post

Sure... I assume I'll be critiqued lol but this what I got. The face is calculated because the radar can't see it. The radar does this buy taking the launch direction of the golf ball against the target and then factoring in the clubs path and speed at which it's moving. Basically same deal with loft. Directly measures vertical launch of the golf ball then factors in angle of attack, speed and uses a formula to calculate what the face and loft must be based on these variables.

 

Nobody disagrees with that. We knew that already.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wangus94 View Post

There's concern how accurate these numbers really are when hit on the toe or heel because if the ball takes off in a different direction than the path, like left or closed, than the face would have to be closed to the path as well.

 

Again, this was already addressed. The face reading will be wrong, but even a semi-experienced operator can identify these kinds of shots pretty easily.

 

And why do you keep saying things like "the ball takes off in a different direction than the path" - the ball almost always takes off in a different direction than the path. Heck, even if you consider the AoA and the loft on the face, the ball definitely takes off in a different direction than the path on every swing (I guess you could thin one just right and it could take off in the same direction as the path).

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wangus94 View Post

If the ball was curving the opposite way however, than the machines guesses how much the club rotated or geared at the moment the ball was taking off the face. It's making an educated guess based off where the ball starts it's line and working backwards.

 

That's not really accurate (or your phrasing is muddy).

 

The spin on the ball is measured. If you hit a draw with a face that is "reported" as open to the path, you toed it. Vice versa for a heel-cut.

 

There's no "working backwards." The doppler radar, be it FlightScope or TrackMan, measures most things, but calculates face angle at impact and loft, among a few other little things. The ball is directly measured, and they know their math and are accurate on center hits. Again, on non-center hits, any experienced operator can identify them pretty easily.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wangus94 View Post

These things basically assume center hits and if you make a swing from the inside say. You swing +5 degrees to the right, the ball starts +3 degrees right and has a negative spin axis to it ... than the strike had to be center.

 

It doesn't have to be centered. You could have heeled or toed that one, too. You didn't say what club, speed, how much spin axis tilt there was, etc.

 

Most of your posts are vague, muddy, and non-specific. Then you try to claim that we're not being forthcoming or something.

post #31 of 57

Excuse me, but let me see if I understand some of this...

 

  1. Doppler radar only collects actual data on the flight of the ball from impact to various distances.
  2. No actual measurement of the club (speed, target line, path, loft, face, AOA) whatsoever. All these are either assumed, manually input or calculated.
  3. Question - How many ball flight data points are actually measured, and at what distance?
  4. Algorithms, based on ball flight data points combined with multiple assumptions are used to calculate all club data.

 

It appears to me that the only data that can be said to be factual is that actually measured from the radar returns at each specific data point collected. ALL else is inference!

 

Sounds a lot like the same type of pseudo science that gave us "Global Warming", "Climate Change", and now "Climate Disruption"!

 

I have enough experience in life to see that the meteorologists have a lousy record of accuracy.

 

I can see the ball flight with my aging eyes.

 

Maybe "Feel ain't Real", but "science" based on limited data and multiple inferences or assumptions is pure delusion! :loco:

post #32 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

Nobody disagrees with that. We knew that already.


Again, this was already addressed. The face reading will be wrong, but even a semi-experienced operator can identify these kinds of shots pretty easily.

And why do you keep saying things like "the ball takes off in a different direction than the path" - the ball almost always takes off in a different direction than the path. Heck, even if you consider the AoA and the loft on the face, the ball definitely takes off in a different direction than the path on every swing (I guess you could thin one just right and it could take off in the same direction as the path).


That's not really accurate (or your phrasing is muddy).

The spin on the ball is measured. If you hit a draw with a face that is "reported" as open to the path, you toed it. Vice versa for a heel-cut.

There's no "working backwards." The doppler radar, be it FlightScope or TrackMan, measures most things, but calculatese been told. face angle at impact and loft, among a few other little things. The ball is directly measured, and they know their math and are accurate on center hits. Again, on non-center hits, any experienced operator can identify them pretty easily.


It doesn't have to be centered. You could have heeled or toed that one, too. You didn't say what club, speed, how much spin axis tilt there was, etc.

Most of your posts are vague, muddy, and non-specific. Then you try to claim that we're not being forthcoming or something.

Buddy I'm just a golfer trying to crack 80... none of this stuff is anything I know about just what I've been told. We can agree to disagree but quite a few are questioning the face measurement accuracy. I like the radar stuff. Like I said before, i got good info from Putter and he's close to me and knows what's up.
Got a good perspective today on how to actually apply this stuff, what matters, and what doesn't. Schoen on the other hand... woaah, that guy has some mind blowing stuff. Guess I'll go back my old school instructor Johnny Gonzalez, he's the man.
post #33 of 57
Climate change belongs in grill room, not here.
post #34 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by CR McDivot View Post
 

Excuse me, but let me see if I understand some of this...

 

  1. Doppler radar only collects actual data on the flight of the ball from impact to various distances.
  2. No actual measurement of the club (speed, target line, path, loft, face, AOA) whatsoever. All these are either assumed, manually input or calculated.

 

Incorrect. Several parameters from the club are measured. Just not the loft and face angle (as the radar can't see those), but they have millions of dollars invested in getting those calculations correct.
 

 

Loft is calculated, which means spin loft is calculated (the upper vector).

Face angle is calculated, so face-to-path is calculated (just the face part, as path is measured).

Total is calculated (as is side total) because it depends on what you enter for fairway "hardness." I.e. it's talking about the roll you get. Carry as you can see is measured.

 

You can find this graphic in a PDF. FlightScope is exactly the same.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CR McDivot View Post
 

Excuse me, but let me see if I understand some of this...

 

  1.  
  2.  
  3. Question - How many ball flight data points are actually measured, and at what distance?
  4. Algorithms, based on ball flight data points combined with multiple assumptions are used to calculate all club data.

 

4 is again incorrect.

 

The answer to the second is thousands of points of data.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CR McDivot View Post
 

It appears to me that the only data that can be said to be factual is that actually measured from the radar returns at each specific data point collected. ALL else is inference!

 

And when you have a data point that's six inches from your last data point, and you understand physics, it's not hard to connect the dots. Plus again, far more is actually measured than you seemed to understand.

 

I believe the club generates thousands of measurements and it's only being tracked for a few feet.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CR McDivot View Post
 

I can see the ball flight with my aging eyes.

 

Maybe "Feel ain't Real", but "science" based on limited data and multiple inferences or assumptions is pure delusion! :loco:

 

And with your aging eyes can you tell us:

  • Club speed to within a tenth of an MPH?
  • Attack angle to within a tenth of a degree?
  • Club Path within a tenth of a degree?
  • VSP and HSP (vertical/horizontal swing plane) to within a tenth of a degree?
  • Ball speed to within a tenth of an MPH?
  • Launch angle within a tenth of a degree?
  • Launch direction (horizontal) within a tenth of a degree?
  • Spin axis within a tenth?
  • Spin rate within 50 or so RPM?
  • Smash factor within a hundredth?
  • Height, carry, and side dispersion within a foot?
  • Landing angle within a degree?

 

Because those are all measured data.

 

Pseudo science? C'mon man.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wangus94 View Post

Buddy I'm just a golfer trying to crack 80... none of this stuff is anything I know about just what I've been told. We can agree to disagree but quite a few are questioning the face measurement accuracy.

 

Virtually all of the questioning is regarding off-center hits, which I've already said is easy for any experienced operator to recognize.

post #35 of 57

excerpted - TRACKMAN™ NEWS ISSUE #9 JANUARY 2013, pg2 TRACKMAN CLUB DELIVERY MEASUREMENTS

TrackMan detects the club head from the microwave reflection that occurs from the club head. Since the reflection from a club head depends on the shape, material, and orientation of the club head, there are some critical factors when using radar technology for club delivery measurements:
• Variable club heads
• Variable swings (club speed, attack angle, club path, swing plane and/or swing direction)
• Various launch positions of the ball relative to the radar (both side and forward/backwards)

 

*The Attack Angle and Club Path assumes that the center of gravity is not located more than 10 mm away from the geometric center of the club head.

 

**Both the Dynamic Loft and Face Angle refers to the impact location on the club face and assumes that ball impact occurs entirely on the club face. The listed accuracy assumes that the club direction (club speed, attack angle, and club path), ball direction (ball speed, launch angle, and launch direction), and spin rate of the ball are all measured.

 

(emphasis mine)

 

Radar sees the club head as a blob as it cannot focus on only one specific point of an irregular object in high speed 3d motion. The geometric center of the club head is therefore calculated from an imprecise measurement upon which even further inferences and assumptions are made. Do the algorithms account for the various club head shapes, masses, COGs? Misalignment to target line? There is a lot of "data" to be acquired here, way too many variables, and imprecision is blindly accepted.

 

There are legitimate reasons to question the validity of the data.

 

http://jeffygolf.com/showthread.php?863-Trackman-clubface-rotation-and-the-curve-of-the-ball

http://jeffygolf.com/forumdisplay.php?23-The-Research-a-thon-and-Trackman

post #36 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CR McDivot View Post

excerpted - TRACKMAN™ NEWS ISSUE #9 JANUARY 2013, pg2 TRACKMAN CLUB DELIVERY MEASUREMENTS
TrackMan detects the club head from the microwave reflection that occurs from the club head. Since the reflection from a club head depends on the shape, material, and orientation of the club head, there are some critical factors when using radar technology for club delivery measurements:

• Variable club heads

• Variable swings (club speed, attack angle, club path, swing plane and/or swing direction)

• Various launch positions of the ball relative to the radar (both side and forward/backwards)




*The Attack Angle and Club Path assumes that the center of gravity is not located more than 10 mm away from the geometric center of the club head.

**Both the Dynamic Loft and Face Angle refers to the impact location on the club face and assumes that ball impact occurs entirely on the club face. The listed accuracy assumes that the club direction (club speed, attack angle, and club path), ball direction (ball speed, launch angle, and launch direction), and spin rate of the ball are all measured.

(emphasis mine)

Radar sees the club head as a blob as it cannot focus on only one specific point of an irregular object in high speed 3d motion. The geometric center of the club head is therefore calculated from an imprecise measurement upon which even further inferences and assumptions are made. Do the algorithms account for the various club head shapes, masses, COGs? Misalignment to target line? There is a lot of "data" to be acquired here, way too many variables, and imprecision is blindly accepted.

There are legitimate reasons to question the validity of the data.

http://jeffygolf.com/showthread.php?863-Trackman-clubface-rotation-and-the-curve-of-the-ball
http://jeffygolf.com/forumdisplay.php?23-The-Research-a-thon-and-Trackman
Wow... exactly it's a blob that assumes the center of gravity is the center if the blob. If the Slider has moved that center of gravity low and front how does that blob make the adjustment? It doesn't. Let's here what captain rebuttal has to say... hahaha.
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