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How Would You Play It? (16th at Whispering Woods)

post #1 of 150
Thread Starter 

For the sake of this discussion, let's assume that you're playing a set of tees that puts your driver where the D is, your 3W where the 3 is, and your 3-hybrid where the "H" is.

 

http://whisperingwoodsgc.com/golf/course/hole_16

(Ignore the yardages).

 

The elevation change from the green to 3 or H is about 30 feet (i.e. quite a bit). Balls that stop at D will come back down like 9 at Augusta. Balls in the rough will stay there. The green is basically perched up above almost everything else, with steep slants away short, left, and long, and a slant uphill to the back right quadrant. (arrows on the diagram point downhill).

 

The green is severe with a bowl funneling shots to the back right. It's a fairly shallow green as well: measuring just under 20 and 30 yards at the maximum width and depth.

 

The areas left and right (between the distance of the 3 and the H) are hazards.

 

Par is a pretty darn good score here. Virtually nobody birdies, despite being nearly drivable.

 

You don't have to use Driver, 3W, or Hybrid; they're just marked to help set up the distances in a uniform way.

 

So, how do you play the hole? Why?

 

 

Edit: H leaves 90 yards. 3 leaves 60. D leaves 30 or so (and the green is about six feet above the letter "D").

 

Edit 2: See post #14 for some width measurements.

 

Edit 3 (2014-05-14): "Answer" is found here: http://thesandtrap.com/t/74530/how-would-you-play-it-16th-at-whispering-woods/72#post_989843 .

post #2 of 150

If I felt confident in my abilities out of the sand, I would hit Driver.  I would think a decent sand player would have a chance to get up and down for birdie, and certainly could get up and down in two for a par.  In the sand would be a possible birdie, but I would think a good chance at par.  If it is in the rough or fairway (even funneled back down), I would think I could still get on the green in one and close enough to two putt for par.

 

As of now, I could easily leave a shot in the sand or skull it over the green, so with my abilities I would hit the 3 wood.  It does not appear to be any benefit to hit the hybrid.  H and 3 appear to have similar landing areas (width), so why not get closer.

post #3 of 150
I would hit 3W
post #4 of 150
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbuck View Post

I would hit 3W

 

Why?

 

These threads aren't fun and informative with basic answers like that. Share some of the thoughts behind your choice.

post #5 of 150

I would not go 3 because of the chance you could pull it into the thick stuff left.  That is out of the question.  I am torn between D and H.  I like how the landing area opens up for D, but I would not want to be in one of those bunkers with a severe uphill bunker shot for my second. Anything could happen from there. With H I have a good chance to be in the fairway and from there and around 100 yards I will have a very, very small chance of being in the bunkers after my second, and the spin that the shot would generate would be best for that green.  I would love to go with D, but I would probably be best off going with H.

post #6 of 150

Kind of hard to do without knowing the distance to the middle from the H, 3 and D. I would still go driver. My miss is a push and my shot is a push draw. I don't see much that scares me there. Probably aim at the right bunker. Any half way decent shot of mine seems like it would be right rough, right bunker, fairway or green with a lucky bounce. 

post #7 of 150
My first instinct was 3W. There's no real reason to hit driver because even if you hit the fairway, the ball will roll backwards, and if you miss you're in a bunker.

3W leaves you still with a long pitch or a short full wedge shot, and being closer to the shallow green makes the approache easier.

Two things give me pause and might make me err towards the hybrid or even a long iron (actually, more a long iron). First, the drop-offs around the fairway near the 3W landing area look pretty steep, and IIRC, those gnarly low spots on that course can be pretty tough. Second, if the green slopes that much front-to-back, you might want more spin on your approach shot.

So for me, it's between 3W and long iron. I'd probably go 3W.

(EDIT: Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure when I played there with you I hit driver and went wayyyyyyyyy left of the green. Like onto the next fairway, or in the rough nearby, but just about green-high. Truthfully, I'd probably do that again, if only because you're no where near the hazards.)
post #8 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

So, how do you play the hole? Why?

I would hit a 4 iron, maybe even a 5 iron off the tee, leaving something on the order of a full sand wedge coming in.  (I'm not saying the full sand wedge is the reason, just that that looks like what I'd be faced with)

 

Driver makes little sense because:
 

Quote:
Balls that stop at D will come back down like 9 at Augusta.

 

Wait.  On the other hand ...

 

Quote:
Balls in the rough will stay there.

 

Aha.  OK, I got it.  Forget the iron, I'm hitting driver.

 

A 3 wood or hybrid is out because those both bring the hazards into play.  However, a driver clears the hazards and leaves nothing more than, I'm assuming, a 50 yard pitch.  The risk with the driver is that I'll end up in one of those front bunkers.  A 30 yard bunker shot to an elevated and "severe" green is not my cup of tea, but I still think its the best play.

 

If I happen to be really struggling with the driver that day, I'd jump down to the 4 or 5 iron to stay short of the hazards.  That fairway is too tight to be confident in hitting at that point, even with a hybrid.

post #9 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

For the sake of this discussion, let's assume that you're playing a set of tees that puts your driver where the D is, your 3W where the 3 is, and your 3-hybrid where the "H" is.

 

 

Sorta depends on this statement. Are these meant to be distance designations or actual spots where the ball will be hit to. I think you meant the first so:

 

Driver and hope to miss the fairway because playing uphill to a green I can't see running away and shallow just doesn't sound fun and the further away the less fun since even fairly well struck shots at that elevation change don't stop like normal and run out a bit. Also missing right or left with driver is OK compared to 3W which looks to run off into bad places with misses left and right.

 

We have a hole very much like this and from an aerial view the bunkers just short of the green would look benign but they are 10 feet below the green surface and in no way do I want to be in them so idk. 

post #10 of 150
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatwoodtigerdo View Post
 

Kind of hard to do without knowing the distance to the middle from the H, 3 and D

 

I added them, thanks. 90, 60, 30. Uphill is probably 25, 20, and <10 feet respectively.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamo View Post

3W leaves you still with a long pitch or a short full wedge shot, and being closer to the shallow green makes the approache easier.

 

You're confident in your ability to hit a 60-yard pitch shot to a green 25 feet above you? And to avoid the hazards left and right of the fairway?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by M2R View Post

 

Sorta depends on this statement. Are these meant to be distance designations or actual spots where the ball will be hit to. I think you meant the first so:

 

They're where your ball ends up (for distance only) if you hit each of those clubs off the tee.

post #11 of 150

I'm jumping on the driver bandwagon as well. Even though there is more FW to hit with the 3W, I would prefer to take the hazards out of play. It does appear that it would be a pretty significant miss to put a 3W in one of those hazards, but it wouldn't be the first time I've significantly missed. With a driver I know I can clear the hazards, and if I miss the fairway I end up with a short pitch from the rough or a difficult bunker shot. By the sounds of the elevated green and extreme slopes, it seems pretty unlikely to get up and down for birdie from either of these locations, but I feel confident that I could get the ball somewhere on the green and give myself two putts at making par. From there it's a matter of proper reads and making good strokes on the ball to two-putt for my par.

 

I feel like this strategy gives me the best chance of eliminating a big number, and also gives me the best chance at hitting the GIR. By the sounds of this green, a 3 putt certainly isn't out of the question, but more times than not I feel like I'm going to make par if I can get on that green in regulation, and I believe that hitting driver gives me the best chance to do that.

post #12 of 150
I don't want a half-swing approach to an elevated green. Hybrid off the tee, and leave a full, easy wedge for the second.
post #13 of 150

Driver is out.  Just too many things that can go wrong with anything other than a perfect shot and with that elevation, it looks as if you might be virtually blind to the entire green (maybe even the pin) from down front.

 

I'm normally a "the closer the better" guy, but in this case I'm likely to lay back with hybrid.  That's a very accurate club for me and will pretty much guarantee a nice 3/4 Gap Wedge into the green which is a shot in which I have a lot of confidence.  It's a bit of a dead shot for me that stops well, but doesn't have much chance of spinning back much.  I can get a little squirrely with a 3-wood and would have a much higher possibility of dumping it in the junk for not a whole lot of incremental benefit.   

 

Small green so I'm just putting it in the middle and should be within 30' of the pin just about wherever it is.  I'll take 30' birdie putts all day long.....

post #14 of 150
Thread Starter 

Some additional measurements, btw:

 

46 feet, 87 feet, and 64 feet from green backwards.

 

FEET, btw. Not yards.

 

post #15 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

You're confident in your ability to hit a 60-yard pitch shot to a green 25 feet above you? And to avoid the hazards left and right of the fairway?

Put that way, no, not really.
post #16 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maddog10 View Post
 

... I would prefer to take the hazards out of play.

Yeah, this is what led me to my decision as well.  I asked myself what's the absolute worst position I can be in with driver vs. 3 wood/hybrid?  One of those front bunkers.  I'll take an awkwardly long, uphill bunker SECOND shot over a medium/simple 3/4 sand wedge THIRD shot all day long. ;-)

post #17 of 150

3W is the safest off the tee in my opinion.  Risk/Reward of D is not worth it.  Although I am decent out of the sand I'd rather avoid it.  Especially to an elevated green.  That could be bad, especially if you trickled in and had a bad lie or pancaked in the front.

 

I'm also very confident in the open face lob wedge to 60 yards.  I'll knock that down all day.  I'd be more aggressive with the lob wedge depending on where the flag is. 

 

No way I hit the H there is no reason to not leave the yardage on the table.

 

Also the only case I'd hit driver is circumstances of a bet.  If I'm down 1 with 3 to play or even down 2 or 3 with 3 to play I go for it, and hope for an easy drive, pitch and roll, and hopefully a birdie putt.  Obviously this is a huge risk/reward but it depends on what my partner is doing off the tee.

 

If it's stroke play, 3W.  Match play and the circumstances call for it, this 16th hole would be a big turning point in a close match and if I'm hitting first I might just pull the D and try to seal to V or stage a comeback.

post #18 of 150

I would look at my playing partners and say "gimme?" Then we'd all pick up and go to the next hole with our birdies! :-P

 

Now for the real answer. Seeing as how I don't have a 3w, and I'm much more comfortable hitting a 30 yd shot over a 90 yd severely uphill shot I'd go driver.

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