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Unplayables in a Bunker - Let's Change a Rule of Golf! - Page 10

post #163 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

Thanks for playing devil's advocate.

 

I don't know that I agree with A. Bunkers might sometimes turn out to be more penal than a hazard (and this rule is a big part of that), but I don't know that they're "supposed" to be. Who says? I think the overwhelming majority of the time, they're less penal, and they're generally regarded as such. Take for example the Road Hole bunker… people have managed to hole out from it. If instead of sand there were two feet of water there, everyone would take a one-stroke penalty.

 

And I don't know that I agree with B either. Water hazards have distinct lines, and thus you can estimate where they crossed the lines. There are no such lines in tall grass (through the green), and since you've lost track of your golf ball, stroke and distance makes sense.

 

Hazards (water or sand) are not through the green. You can play your ball - without grounding your clubs - from either hazard. Yet from a bunker, you can't drop outside the bunker as you can from a water hazard, despite there being a very clear line that separates "bunker" from "through the green."


I remember watching the Memorial a few years back - and it was discussed that Jack removed every other tyne from the rakes, so that the bunkers couldn't be raked perfectly smooth. As the bunkers should be a penalty... and the way bunkers are manicured on most courses, players almost always prefer a bunker opposed to being in the rough.

post #164 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn725 View Post
 


I remember watching the Memorial a few years back - and it was discussed that Jack removed every other tyne from the rakes, so that the bunkers couldn't be raked perfectly smooth. As the bunkers should be a penalty... and the way bunkers are manicured on most courses, players almost always prefer a bunker opposed to being in the rough.

I think that was the same year they had the Open at Oakmont because I remember the discussion about this coming up in regards to the Open as well.  I guess "furrowed" bunkers was a thing a long time ago, and he and the USGA were considering the idea of bringing them back.  That would be fine by me.

 

It's simply about knowing what to expect.  I don't have any problem with hard bunkers or soft bunkers, but I should be able to plan for it.  I would be able to plan for intentional furrows.  It's the unraked footprints that can be a little frustrating, because they can make what should have been a do-able shot into a really difficult shot.  The other thing about bunkers that's frustrating is when they vary a lot within a course.  Some really hard, some really soft sand, some in between.

 

There is nothing at all wrong with bunkers being penal unless it's a situation that you can't plan your strategy around.

post #165 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

I think that was the same year they had the Open at Oakmont because I remember the discussion about this coming up in regards to the Open as well.  I guess "furrowed" bunkers was a thing a long time ago, and he and the USGA were considering the idea of bringing them back.  That would be fine by me.

 

It's simply about knowing what to expect.  I don't have any problem with hard bunkers or soft bunkers, but I should be able to plan for it.  I would be able to plan for intentional furrows.  It's the unraked footprints that can be a little frustrating, because they can make what should have been a do-able shot into a really difficult shot.  The other thing about bunkers that's frustrating is when they vary a lot within a course.  Some really hard, some really soft sand, some in between.

 

There is nothing at all wrong with bunkers being penal unless it's a situation that you can't plan your strategy around.


I hate hitting out of footprints too, especially when they're my own from the last attempt. ;-)

 

I remember the year that Jack went with furrowed bunker rakes. As if his bunkers aren't penal enough. Last Friday, I watched Villegas' shot come up short of the bunker on 18. The guy next to me was said, "At least it didn't go in the bunker." I replied that he would prefer that it went in. He gave me a funny look until Camillo's next shot sailed out of the spinach onto the 10th tee box. Personally, I think thick grass bunkers penalize you more than sand bunkers.

post #166 of 180
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn725 View Post
 

As the bunkers should be a penalty... and the way bunkers are manicured on most courses, players almost always prefer a bunker opposed to being in the rough.

 

They say that, but no, the stats don't really bear that out. Only on the PGA Tour do they get close, but the grass always wins. And the gap gets wider from there.

post #167 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post
 

 

Speaking of sod-faced bunkers, this is the pic depicting the thread on this site.....

 

300x150px-ZC-cfb7867d_lee_8.jpeg

 

Interestingly, it's tough to tell from this pic, but if this were a sod-faced (stacked turf) bunker, the player would be entitled to drop as far back behind the bunker as he likes, keeping this point between him and the hole. 

Assuming that this in considered to be outside the bunker (through the green) and the course in question was playing the embedded ball rule through the green, would you be entitled to a free drop if it end up getting into this position on the fly?  Would the nearest point of relief likely be behind the bunker?

post #168 of 180
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 

Assuming that this in considered to be outside the bunker (through the green) and the course in question was playing the embedded ball rule through the green, would you be entitled to a free drop if it end up getting into this position on the fly?  Would the nearest point of relief likely be behind the bunker?

 

Off topic and easy to answer for yourself.

 

25-2. Embedded Ball

A ball embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground in any closely mown areathrough the green may be lifted, cleaned and dropped, without penalty, as near as possible to the spot where it lay but not nearer the hole. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the coursethrough the green. “Closely mown area” means any area of the course, including paths through the rough, cut to fairway height or less.

Simple suggestion for you @MEfree - post about golf, not about golf rules. You've burned too many bridges and the patience of too many on that.

post #169 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

Off topic and easy to answer for yourself.

 

25-2. Embedded Ball

A ball embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground in any closely mown areathrough the green may be lifted, cleaned and dropped, without penalty, as near as possible to the spot where it lay but not nearer the hole. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the coursethrough the green. “Closely mown area” means any area of the course, including paths through the rough, cut to fairway height or less.

 

I am familiar with the embedded ball rule, but wanted to confirm that a line drive into a sod bank would be considered its "own pitch-mark"

post #170 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

Off topic and easy to answer for yourself.

 

25-2. Embedded Ball

A ball embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground in any closely mown areathrough the green may be lifted, cleaned and dropped, without penalty, as near as possible to the spot where it lay but not nearer the hole. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the coursethrough the green. “Closely mown area” means any area of the course, including paths through the rough, cut to fairway height or less.

 

I am familiar with the embedded ball rule, but wanted to confirm that a line drive into a sod bank would be considered its "own pitch-mark"

 

Of course it is.  If the ball is embedded in the depression it created by impact with the ground, then it's in it's pitch mark.  Why would you have any question about that?

post #171 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

In talking with @david_wedzik this morning about a chapter in Lowest Score Wins, I pointed out to him that you could not take an unplayable ball in a bunker and drop within two club lengths or on a line back from the hole to escape the bunker.

 

He was surprised by this, and in thinking about it, it struck neither of us as "right" given the other Rules of Golf.

 

This, I quickly decided (and I may rethink it later, but for now I'm sticking to it and arguing this point), is the one Rule of Golf I would change.

 

Why, should a bunker penalize a player more than a water hazard? I'm aware of the fact that you can play a ball out of a bunker virtually every time, and 98% of the time out of a hazard you can't even find your ball without scuba gear and a few free hours - I'm talking about when you choose to take a penalty stroke.

 

So imagine this.

 

I have a bunch of little bushes. Next to them I have a small creek. Next to that, I have a bunker.

 

Three players tee off and each hits a ball into the bushes, the creek, or the bunker.

 

Each decides to take a penalty stroke and drop back, in the fairway, on the line from the hole through their ball. Except the guy in the bunker doesn't get to do it. If he is a poor bunker player, under the Rules of Golf, he could quite literally never get out unless he opts to re-play his tee shot (stroke and distance), effectively a two-stroke penalty while the other players only suffer a one-stroke penalty.

 

It's still early, and I'd love to hear opposition to this, but I'm seriously considering petitioning the USGA to change this rule. I realize that bunkers are not "through the green," but all it would take is the removal of the bolded lines here:

 

 

Just remove that paragraph. What's the harm? Bunkers suck. Most players will continue to play out of them most of the time, but if your ball buries under the lip and you want to take an unplayable, why should you be penalized MORE than if your ball buries in the mud of a creek in a water hazard by having to play from the hazard again?

 

So in this situation my only option, other than dropping on the ice, is to take a stroke and distance penalty.

 

post #172 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by ay33660 View Post
 

 

So in this situation my only option, other than dropping on the ice, is to take a stroke and distance penalty.

 

 

Or  under penalty of one stroke, outside the bunker keeping the point where the ball lay directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the bunker the ball may be dropped. 25-1b(ii)b

post #173 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by ay33660 View Post
 

 

So in this situation my only option, other than dropping on the ice, is to take a stroke and distance penalty.

 

There still is some part of the bunker not covered in ice :)

post #174 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by HanNL View Post
 

There still is some part of the bunker not covered in ice :)

Seemingly none not nearer the hole.

post #175 of 180

 

Way too cold to be playing golf.  :-)

post #176 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rulesman View Post
 

Or  under penalty of one stroke, outside the bunker keeping the point where the ball lay directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the bunker the ball may be dropped. 25-1b(ii)b

 

 

Thanks for that. I haven't read thru the whole thread so the original comment was not correct then - "In talking with @david_wedzik this morning about a chapter in Lowest Score Wins, I pointed out to him that you could not take an unplayable ball in a bunker and drop within two club lengths or on a line back from the hole to escape the bunker."?

 

Also if I was a lousy bunker player can I choose this option even if the bunker was not covered by ice?

post #177 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by ay33660 View Post
 

 

 

Thanks for that. I haven't read thru the whole thread so the original comment was not correct then - "In talking with @david_wedzik this morning about a chapter in Lowest Score Wins, I pointed out to him that you could not take an unplayable ball in a bunker and drop within two club lengths or on a line back from the hole to escape the bunker."?

 

Also if I was a lousy bunker player can I choose this option even if the bunker was not covered by ice?

 

Sure, you can deem your ball unplayable any place on the course except in a water hazard.  You are the sole judge as to whether or not the ball is unplayable.

 

Edit:  Oops, That's embarrassing.  See below.


Edited by Dormie1360 - Today at 10:10 am
post #178 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by ay33660 View Post
 

 

 

Thanks for that. I haven't read thru the whole thread so the original comment was not correct then - "In talking with @david_wedzik this morning about a chapter in Lowest Score Wins, I pointed out to him that you could not take an unplayable ball in a bunker and drop within two club lengths or on a line back from the hole to escape the bunker."?

 

Also if I was a lousy bunker player can I choose this option even if the bunker was not covered by ice?

No.  There first needs to be interference from abnornal ground conditions (casual water in this instance) in order to drop as correctly cited by Rulesman.  If you are in a bunker without any interference and don't want to drop in the bunker, then stroke & distance is the sole option.

post #179 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkuehn1952 View Post
 

No.  There first needs to be interference from abnornal ground conditions (casual water in this instance) in order to drop as correctly cited by Rulesman.  If you are in a bunker without any interference and don't want to drop in the bunker, then stroke & distance is the sole option.

 

Thanks all.

 

Sorry but I am still confused.

 

In the original post Iacas highlighted this - 

 

If the unplayable ball is in a bunker, the player may proceed under Clause a, b or c. If he elects to proceed under Clause b or c, a ball must be dropped in the bunker

 

This is from Rule 28 definitions

 

Rule 28 Ball Unplayable

Definitions

All defined terms are in italics and are listed alphabetically in the Definitions section.

The player may deem his ball unplayable at any place on the course, except when the ball is in a water hazard. The player is the sole judge as to whether his ball is unplayable.

If the player deems his ball to be unplayable, he must, under penalty of one stroke:

a. Proceed under the stroke and distance provision of Rule 27-1 by playing a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or

b. Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or

c. Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole.

If the unplayable ball is in a bunker, the player may proceed under Clause a, b or c. If he elects to proceed under Clause b or c, a ball must be dropped in the bunker.

When proceeding under this Rule, the player may lift and clean his ball orsubstitute a ball.

 

Rulesman quoted Section 25-1b(ii)b (Abnormal ground conditions)

 

(ii)In a Bunker: If the ball is in a bunker, the player must lift the ball and drop it either:

(a) Without penalty, in accordance with Clause (i) above, except that thenearest point of relief must be in the bunker and the ball must be dropped in the bunker or, if complete relief is impossible, as near as possible to the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole, on a part of the course in thebunker that affords maximum available relief from the condition; or

(b) Under penalty of one stroke, outside the bunker keeping the point where the ball lay directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the bunker the ball may be dropped.

 

 

 

So what I get out of this is:

 

In the absence of an Abnormal ground condition, a players who's ball lands in a bunker cannot take relief outside of the bunker without incurring a stroke and distance penalty.

 

However if there is "Abnormal ground conditions" within the bunker the player may elect to take a one stroke penalty and play the ball outside of the bunker. This option is available to him even if there is a spot within the bunker to take relief. The only difference is that if he takes the relief within the bunker there is no stroke penalty.

 

SO ..... if I am on the fairway near the green but shank a lob wedge ball left into a deep bunker such it is in the face of the bunker and I cannot get a good stance, I can declare the ball as unplayable and under a penalty of one stroke replay again from my original spot (eg on the fairway near the green with the stoke AND distance penalty). As the bunker is very deep and I would have had to take a stoke to hit it out sideways anyways, by declaring the ball unplayable I will have the same number of strokes back at the original spot except I don't have the uncertainty and risk of getting it out of the bunker and onto the fairway in only one stroke.

 

If I am correct then this is a case where one can use the rules to their advantage. I guess we don't see this ever with the pros as they are so confident in their ability to get the ball out of the bunker from any lie.

post #180 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by ay33660 View Post
 

 

So what I get out of this is:

 

1) In the absence of an Abnormal ground condition, a players who's ball lands in a bunker cannot take relief outside of the bunker without incurring a stroke and distance penalty.

 

2) However if there is "Abnormal ground conditions" within the bunker the player may elect to take a one stroke penalty and play the ball outside of the bunker. This option is available to him even if there is a spot within the bunker to take relief. The only difference is that if he takes the relief within the bunker there is no stroke penalty.

 

 

 

1) Correct.

 

2) Not quite. The player may only take relief if there is interference from the abnormal ground condition

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