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80% of handicap in match play - Page 2

post #19 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkuehn1952 View Post
 

I am not sure how to interpret this comment.  You are correct that the method of allocating strokes is intended to give strokes to the higher handicapped player on the holes where he/she most likely will need a stroke(s) in order to play even with the lower handicapped player.

 

Once the strokes are allocated, if both players record a gross "4" on a hole where the higher handicapped player receives a stroke, he/she will win the hole with a net "3".

I think what he meant is with the given stroke both players are expected to have the same score. So if someone is given the stroke they are expected to score a 5 with net a of 4 and the person giving the stroke is expected to have an actual 4. This makes either person have to play better than normal to win the hole.

post #20 of 38
Well obviously if there's a par 5 e.g. and both players score 5 then the high capper would win the hole right?

With fully equitable hcp being applied.
Lets say one player is 36hcp (max hcp?) And the other golfer is 0 hcp.
post #21 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkim291968 View Post


This is music to my ears.   I have entered a 100% handicap, match play knockout tournament.   If you are right, I have a chance to climb up the bracket.   Any word of advise to play against mid-cap, or low-cap player?   E.g, against low-capper, should I try to play safe on harder holes and "go for par" on easy holes?  

Play every hole as a personal par of bogey. You'll win a lot of holes with bogey and will only lose to birdies. Make him make pars to tie you and you'll wear him down.

 

Good advice, but easier said than done for a 21 handicapper.  Playing "safe" golf usually ends up biting one in the posterior.  Play your game, and make good decisions based on the situation to give yourself the best chance.  

 

Nerves seem to be the bogey plus golfer's worst enemy.  You have a chip to get up and down to win the hole, or up and 2 putt for a tie, and you skull the chip across the green, take 3 more and lose the hole.  I can't tell how many times I've seen scenes similar to this when the nerves start to get to a player.  Combating it is a different process for different people, and you just have to get out and do it to see what works for you.

Thanks, DiF & 4P.

 

I don't have "nerve" issues.  If anything, I focus & do better when there's pressure (or people watching me).    If I make big numbers on a hole, it is b/c of my current golf skills (or lack of).   However, I am streaky.   I can go 39 on front nine followed by 58.   Having been a 13 handicapper just a year ago, I also have confidence that my slump can end at any time.   Hopefully, all these + 100% handicap translate into good result.  

post #22 of 38
Quote:
 

Thanks, DiF & 4P.

 

I don't have "nerve" issues.  If anything, I focus & do better when there's pressure (or people watching me).    If I make big numbers on a hole, it is b/c of my current golf skills (or lack of).   However, I am streaky.   I can go 39 on front nine followed by 58.   Having been a 13 handicapper just a year ago, I also have confidence that my slump can end at any time.   Hopefully, all these + 100% handicap translate into good result.  

 

In that case, what I can recommend is just play smart.  Don't go for the hero shot unless the circumstances demand it.  When in trouble, get out of trouble, don't do something that's likely to put yourself in deeper.  You may not always win, or even tie a hole that way, but by avoiding blowups, it will help your own confidence.  

 

Don't assume that you have an easy win if your opponent gets in trouble.  The best mental approach to match play is to assume that he is always going to make the best shot, the best recovery.  That way you aren't surprised or disappointed when an apparent advantage goes back to even again.  Match play can be mentally grueling.  Letting those highs and lows get to you is a recipe for losing.  

 

Approach it like any other round of golf.  Go out with the intent of having fun.  Try not to let anything he does get you down.   I've played matches against much better players, and against much worse ones, and I've won some and lost some.  There are days when the golf gods seem to be on your side - other days, not so much.  That is the nature of competition.  Just enjoy it and take it as just another round of golf.  Win or lose, life will go on when it's over. 

post #23 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkuehn1952 View Post
 

I am not sure how to interpret this comment.  You are correct that the method of allocating strokes is intended to give strokes to the higher handicapped player on the holes where he/she most likely will need a stroke(s) in order to play even with the lower handicapped player.

 

Once the strokes are allocated, if both players record a gross "4" on a hole where the higher handicapped player receives a stroke, he/she will win the hole with a net "3".


This is an area where USGA wording requires a "Philadelphia Lawyer" to decipher the meaning of it's quotation -

 

"Section 17 ALLOCATION OF HANDICAP STROKES

 

17-1. Discretion of Committee

The basic principle of allocating handicap strokes is to equalize the abilities of players at different handicap levels.  A handicap stroke should be an equalizer rather than a winning stroke and should be available on a hole where it most likely will be need by the higher-handicapped player to obtain a half in singles or four-ball match play."

 

So, should it be a win, OR, should it not be a WIN on a hole?

 

I've played in many a "Skins Game" where players were given a "half stroke"

When both players record a gross "4" then the player with the stroke would win.

But when one player makes a bird, then the higher handicap's par if given a half stroke would not top the birdie.

 

Club Rat

post #24 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Club Rat View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkuehn1952 View Post
 

I am not sure how to interpret this comment.  You are correct that the method of allocating strokes is intended to give strokes to the higher handicapped player on the holes where he/she most likely will need a stroke(s) in order to play even with the lower handicapped player.

 

Once the strokes are allocated, if both players record a gross "4" on a hole where the higher handicapped player receives a stroke, he/she will win the hole with a net "3".


This is an area where USGA wording requires a "Philadelphia Lawyer" to decipher the meaning of it's quotation -

 

"Section 17 ALLOCATION OF HANDICAP STROKES

 

17-1. Discretion of Committee

The basic principle of allocating handicap strokes is to equalize the abilities of players at different handicap levels.  A handicap stroke should be an equalizer rather than a winning stroke and should be available on a hole where it most likely will be need by the higher-handicapped player to obtain a half in singles or four-ball match play."

 

So, should it be a win, OR, should it not be a WIN on a hole?

 

I've played in many a "Skins Game" where players were given a "half stroke"

When both players record a gross "4" then the player with the stroke would win.

But when one player makes a bird, then the higher handicap's par if given a half stroke would not top the birdie.

 

Club Rat

 

It was already explained, but I'll try again.  All that means is that strokes should be given on the holes where the higher handicap is most likely to need a stroke to match the player who is playing at scratch.  This is why the manual also says that the match should be handicapped so that the lower handicap player plays at scratch while the higher handicap only gets strokes for the difference between them.  Allowing both players their full handicaps seems to be the same thing on the surface, but in reality that skews the results in actual play.  

 

Strokes should only be given where it's most needed to even the play based on the relative abilities of the two players.  That is not a guarantee that it will always result in halving a hole.  Such a condition would be rather ludicrous.

post #25 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

It was already explained, but I'll try again.  All that means is that strokes should be given on the holes where the higher handicap is most likely to need a stroke to match the player who is playing at scratch.  This is why the manual also says that the match should be handicapped so that the lower handicap player plays at scratch while the higher handicap only gets strokes for the difference between them.  Allowing both players their full handicaps seems to be the same thing on the surface, but in reality that skews the results in actual play.  

 

Strokes should only be given where it's most needed to even the play based on the relative abilities of the two players.  That is not a guarantee that it will always result in halving a hole.  Such a condition would be rather ludicrous.

YES net score determines who wins a hole in handicapped match play.

 

Otherwise the term net score would be completely meaningless, I think. Gross score is simply the number of strokes in scorecard, recorded at the next teebox, for the previously played hole.

 

If the net scores were the same, then the hole would be halved.

Hole will be halved when player a takes 7 strokes, and player b takes 5 strokes at the par 5.

 

net score means, e.g. on a par5.

 

player a: beginner 36hcp

player b: scratch 0hcp

 

On the 4th hole, Par5

 

player a, has gross score of 5 strokes, however he receives 2 extra strokes on all holes, net score = (5+2)-5 = 2

player b, has gross score of 5 strokes, his net score = (5+0)-5 = 0

 

clearly player a has higher net score, and he wins the hole. Player a has played essentially 2 under his personal par (his personal par is 7)

player b, has played par, to his personal par (which is 5)

 

clearly player a, is playing to the utmost of his abilities as a high hcp player. Player a receives 2 extra strokes for each hole on the 18-holes, due to the massive handicap difference between 36hcp and 0hcp.

 

player b is playing too conservatively.

post #26 of 38

aargh this is confusing lol

 

This should be the correct formula, smallest score wins the hole. Such as two under, is of course better than par for instance... In other words smaller net score wins the hole...

 

(number of strokes) - (par of the hole) - (allotted strokes) = (net score)

 

Player A 36 hcp, he is allotted 2 extra strokes, on each hole, at 18-holes (if they only played front-9 holes, it would still be only 2 extra allowed strokes on each hole - NOT  4 extra!!!)

 

Player B 0 hcp, he is allotted 0 extra strokes

 

player A

5 - 5 -2= -2

 

player B

5 - 5 -0= 0

 

Therefore, player A has made eagle, and player B has made par. So, player A wins.


Edited by late347 - 5/22/14 at 7:28am
post #27 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by late347 View Post
 

(number of strokes) - (par of the hole) - (allotted strokes) = (net score)

 

Why do you keep adding the par of the hole? Who cares?

 

5 > 3.

 

3 wins.

 

And if you have an 18 playing against a 5, what @Fourputt is saying is that rather than give the 5 his five strokes, you just give the 18 13 strokes on the handicap holes 1-13.

post #28 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

Why do you keep adding the par of the hole? Who cares?

 

5 > 3.

 

3 wins.

 

And if you have an 18 playing against a 5, what @Fourputt is saying is that rather than give the 5 his five strokes, you just give the 18 13 strokes on the handicap holes 1-13.

well, yea... It works like that too, maybe it sounds simpler that way. And indeed, the par of the hole does not matter, and because this is matchplay. Double bogey beats triple bogey on matchplay for sure! :-D

 

Gross score - allotted strokes = net score

 

that seems to be the official formula, actually

 

Player A hcp 0

Player B hcp 18

 

both score 5 strokes, on any hole, par doesn't matter, it could be a 80 yard par3

Player A

5 - 0= 5

 

Player B

5 - 1= 4

 

Therefore player B wins the hole with one stroke advantage...

 

I quoted the wrong person accidentally Sorry Fourputt!!!

 

I should have quoted Club rat, but I goofed up with my answer and quoting.

 

Fourputt is completely in the right with his answer. High capper receives fully i.e. 100% - of his allotted extra strokes - not 80% of them, and the fully alloted number of extra strokes, is determined by the difference between player handicaps, indeed this is true.

 

 

 

Club rat was wrong with his recollection of the rules, with hcp matchplay. Net score determines who wins the hole. If net scores of the players are equal, then I guess the hole is halved so to speak.

 

If you play 18 holes, fully, and all holes are tied, all holes have equal net score between the two players, then you play sudden death until winner is declared...


Edited by late347 - 5/22/14 at 9:26am
post #29 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by late347 View Post
 

Club rat was wrong with his recollection of the rules, with hcp matchplay. Net score determines who wins the hole. If net scores of the players are equal, then I guess the hole is halved so to speak.

 

If you play 18 holes, fully, and all holes are tied, all holes have equal net score between the two players, then you play sudden death until winner is declared...

 

Actually he was just trying to draw a literal conclusion from a generalized statement.  He failed to extrapolate that into actual play.

post #30 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

 

Don't assume that you have an easy win if your opponent gets in trouble. 

 

On a hole that I am getting a stroke, let's say his drive goes into lateral hazard or deep rough.   When it comes to my turn to tee off, I am thinking "play safe" and use a club that I will never get into trouble, like #6 iron.   This can ensure me a bogey (-1 stroke I get) against potential bogey by my opponent.   All things being equal, would this (teeing off with #6i) be a prudent play in this and other similar situation? 

post #31 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkim291968 View Post
 

 

On a hole that I am getting a stroke, let's say his drive goes into lateral hazard or deep rough.   When it comes to my turn to tee off, I am thinking "play safe" and use a club that I will never get into trouble, like #6 iron.   This can ensure me a bogey (-1 stroke I get) against potential bogey by my opponent.   All things being equal, would this (teeing off with #6i) be a prudent play in this and other similar situation? 

You should calculate beforehand, with pen and paper and your scorecard exactly during which holes you get extra allotted strokes.

 

Then you can plan out which you are most likely to win.

 

But as they say, truly golf is only played one stroke at a time... ;-)

post #32 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkim291968 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

 

Don't assume that you have an easy win if your opponent gets in trouble. 

 

On a hole that I am getting a stroke, let's say his drive goes into lateral hazard or deep rough.   When it comes to my turn to tee off, I am thinking "play safe" and use a club that I will never get into trouble, like #6 iron.   This can ensure me a bogey (-1 stroke I get) against potential bogey by my opponent.   All things being equal, would this (teeing off with #6i) be a prudent play in this and other similar situation? 

 

Again that depends on the overall situation.  Such a play might be the best choice if it puts you in position for a possible win, but don't get into an overly conservative mindset, because that can make you timid and tentative with your swing.  It's a problem that I often have when playing a new course.  I try to protect against a big number, and that can be as poor a decision as being overly aggressive.  You have to evaluate each case on its own.

post #33 of 38
Quote:

Originally Posted by late347 View Post

 

Club rat was wrong with his recollection of the rules, with hcp matchplay. Net score determines who wins the hole.

 

He was quoting the manual correctly, just misunderstanding the meaning. The section was only describing how the Handicap Commitee should determine the order of the allocation of handicap strokes to the holes. This of course is determined beforehand, and normally will be shown on the scorecard.  So the committee is supposed to allocate the strokes based on where they are most likely needed to equalize, not to where they will most likely help to win a hole.

 

Once two golfers are actually playing though, of course the handicap stroke still may determine who wins. 

post #34 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkuehn1952 View Post
 

According to Dean Knuth, one of the developers of the USGA's handicap system:

 

"Although handicaps are supposed to equalize matches, it's not always true, is it?  Unfortunately not. The scale is tipped in favor of the better player.  The way the formula works, for every six strokes difference in handicap, the better player has a one-stroke advantage, because the lower handicapper is more likely to play at or near his handicap than the high handicapper. In a match between an eight handicapper and a 14 handicapper, the better player is giving away six strokes, yet the odds are still 60-40 that he will win the match."

 

http://www.popeofslope.com/guidelines/handicap103.html

 

Using 80% of player's handicaps in a one-on-one match will further tip the scales in favor of the lower handicapped player.  If that is the goal, then reducing the handicaps makes sense.

 

This seems to be the key issue here ^^^^^^^.

We have the same in the U.K. Singles matchplay rules now stipulate that it's 100% of handicap difference i.e. I'm off 3 and I'm playing a 15 so I give 12 shots over the round.

I love matchplay and play in that sort of comp any chance I get. I don't often lose to anyone at 10 or above. If it happens, they tend to have a very hot day but they're just as likely (usually) to have a terrible day. What's said above re. a lower handicap being more likely to play near his/her handicap cf. a higher handicapper describes those I know very well.

post #35 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by misty_mountainhop View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkuehn1952 View Post
 

According to Dean Knuth, one of the developers of the USGA's handicap system:

 

"Although handicaps are supposed to equalize matches, it's not always true, is it?  Unfortunately not. The scale is tipped in favor of the better player.  The way the formula works, for every six strokes difference in handicap, the better player has a one-stroke advantage, because the lower handicapper is more likely to play at or near his handicap than the high handicapper. In a match between an eight handicapper and a 14 handicapper, the better player is giving away six strokes, yet the odds are still 60-40 that he will win the match."

 

http://www.popeofslope.com/guidelines/handicap103.html

 

Using 80% of player's handicaps in a one-on-one match will further tip the scales in favor of the lower handicapped player.  If that is the goal, then reducing the handicaps makes sense.

 

This seems to be the key issue here ^^^^^^^.

We have the same in the U.K. Singles matchplay rules now stipulate that it's 100% of handicap difference i.e. I'm off 3 and I'm playing a 15 so I give 12 shots over the round.

I love matchplay and play in that sort of comp any chance I get. I don't often lose to anyone at 10 or above. If it happens, they tend to have a very hot day but they're just as likely (usually) to have a terrible day. What's said above re. a lower handicap being more likely to play near his/her handicap cf. a higher handicapper describes those I know very well.


I figure, in order for me to beat a lower handicap player in match play, I need to limit my bad scores to come from a few blown up holes.  That's easier said than done for a 21 handicapper.   In fact, it only happens one out of about every 15 rounds.   With 80% handicap tournament, I don't think I have any chance.   At 100% giveaway, I think I have a decent chance to put up a fight. 

post #36 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkim291968 View Post
 

Any word of advise to play against mid-cap, or low-cap player?   E.g, against low-capper, should I try to play safe on harder holes and "go for par" on easy holes?  

 

I love it when people talk strategy in golf:

 

1 - in stroke play, on each shot I pick my best option and try to execute it.  I endeavor to score as low as possible that day.

2 - in match play it's different as follows:  on each shot I pick my best option and try to execute it.  I endeavor to score as low as possible that day.

 

(i.e., pretty much all the time, I'm playing against myself and my decisions are driven by my game, no one else's......unless of course the other guys are hitting driver on a lay up hole - then you should always hit driver because it's fun and all the other kids are doing it)

 

(disclaimer, I play for fun mostly, I rarely even know the shot count of my opponent until the hole is finished and am liable to be really excited when they play well because it's gratifying to see anyone play better than they typically do)

 

Exception:  I can see something to it in scrambles/best shot:  if the first guy on the tee hits a great shot, then it's green light for the others to try the high risk/high reward shots since the risk part is deleted.  But that's also selfish because I like to try those shots and it's like getting permission to pick the wrong shot.....

 

 

Quote:
I need to limit my bad scores to come from a few blown up holes.

 

I like this, I had #3 lost yesterday, but I fought to a tie (he won as I was giving strokes).  Had I just tanked it a couple extra strokes, my starting handicap would have been slightly higher and I'd have given two more strokes (yes, bad day, pretty much bogey golf) and I'd have likely taken 2 more holes that he also won on tie....(my first round with this group, so my handicap was calculated 'after' the first round and strokes applied retroactively)

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