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My Swing (Joe Hill) - Page 3

post #37 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Hill View Post

This video explains the "triangle", "hand plane", and what I am trying to achieve with this swing. It should answer many of the questions, but I will go back and answer all soon. Thanks everyone for your patience:


Joe I don't want to be rude, but l just want to point out that you have absolutely lost it my friend!!!

Do you really expect anyone with a brain to spend 30 minutes listening to this?
post #38 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abu3baid View Post

Joe I don't want to be rude, but l just want to point out that you have absolutely lost it my friend!!!

Do you really expect anyone with a brain to spend 30 minutes listening to this?

 

LMAO! I'd have to go get a medical marijuana prescription before I watched that...pencil with a paper triangle??? Damn this is a good thread. Maybe someone can watch it for us and give us the Cliff-notes.

post #39 of 80

Here's my response, Joe.

 

I'll try to keep this short, but we'll see how good a job I do of that.

 

 

I'll start on the left.

 

This triangle thing is great in theory, except that you don't make a swing like this. Your right elbow bends, which I've illustrated on the left, which makes your left arm (both segments) raise quite a bit. This disrupts your triangle and has it pointing well above a plane that intersects the golf ball - in fact, your right upper arm and your entire left arm are no longer even contained in the same plane.

 

On the right, the green arrows indicate the direction hinging the club would move the clubhead and shaft in this position - which is why if the wrists are hinged/cocked, a club shaft that is anywhere near vertical to left of vertical involved a good amount of forearm rotation.

 

 

"That's a hundred-n-eighty degree turn. That's as high as the hands get right there."

 

I realize that you're talking about how this is the "basic concept" and you realize that "bones are curved" (or something). So my question then is "what's the point in discussing a triangle that is almost never a triangle in performing a real golf swing?" Why are you even spending time to discuss this?

 

You said "It's not like anything we've been taught…" and I would suggest that's a good thing, because nobody should swing that way, without bending the right elbow.

 

You said "This is a very, very powerful way" to swing the club and that "you motor the entire swing with the thorax." No it isn't. You've removed the entire right arm. If you removed the wrists too, and truly swung with just the thorax, you'd have a very, very slow golf swing. You'd probably not hit your driver 150 yards, let alone a pitching wedge.

 

Now you're bending the whole thing upward, because you say we can bend our elbows, and that they point down. I'd love to see a golf swing where your elbows point down and your left "elbow pit" especially is facing directly away from the golfer's body, as you've demonstrated.

 

Here's the simple geometry there: if you bend the right elbow, the left arm stays straight and lifts, completely destroying the triangle.

 

I just got to the part where you said the right elbow bending "does alter the triangle somewhat, but not a great degree. That's not even close, IMO. The left arm raises, completely destroying your triangle, as the left upper arm and the right upper arm are not even in the same plane. All parts of a triangle are in the same plane, and you've completely destroyed the triangle as soon as you bend the right elbow.

 

I'll admit I'm fast forwarding now. I made it almost 9 minutes before I started, though.

 

Also, btw, your spine is not a pencil, nor is it straight, nor do all parts of your spine turn equally (your swing would require a 90° hip turn as well, if your spine was like your pencil).

 

The club will not "hinge when it's ready to if you let it." Totally false. The club doesn't have a brain, or muscles, or elbows, or wrists. It doesn't "hinge when it's ready to." The golfer must hinge his wrists, which moves the clubhead.

 

I'm really fast forwarding now.

 

1. Your ulna is not where your thumb is. It's on the pinkie side of your hand, Joe.

2. The club "breaks" not between the triangle because… wait for it… you've rotated your forearms. That's why it "breaks" to the outside of your triangle.

 

I give up.

 


 

Here's my quick opinion, with all respect intended: you don't understand basic anatomy or geometry. Consequently, you're believing your feels over what is actually occurring, geometrically and anatomically.

 

Your ideas for the swing are easily disputed, and I'm done spending time thinking about this. I do not believe you could hit your driver 150 yards performing this swing as you seem to have described it, let alone a pitching wedge.

 

You're welcome to continue to post here, but please keep your posts within this thread, and maybe one or two others.

post #40 of 80
Joe, I actually watched the entire presentation. I think this has become a situation similar to discussing scientific theories with a scientologist. I believe that you believe you have something amazing here. I do. I however also believe that Erik has done a pretty solid and accurate explanation to the false principles in your swing. I'm not sure after watching the presentation if you're going to accept what Erik or any of us say despite basic math and anatomy showing some contradictions in your method.

Nonetheless, I would like to say this: remember what golf is. It's a sport, a hobby. It's as complex as you want to make it. But is that really how you want to pursue this wonderful game? You said you're not even playing? Why would that be the worse thing for you to do? Enjoy this game. Enjoy improving and laugh at your downfalls. You're 65. Get out on the course and have a great time. Swing your swing the best you can.

Put away your model. Breathe the air and hear the trees. Look down the fairway and hit that little white ball and just love it. Take care Joe.
post #41 of 80
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abu3baid View Post


Joe I don't want to be rude, but l just want to point out that you have absolutely lost it my friend!!!

Do you really expect anyone with a brain to spend 30 minutes listening to this?

What other deadly accurate and potent swing can be explained in full (from the waist up in this case) in under a 1/2 hour? I gave every last detail of what I do.

post #42 of 80
Thread Starter 

Update on the measurement. I booked Ron Gring to tape and speed measure my swing. He cancelled because he doesn't have a launch monitor. He's in the middle of moving, so just mis-communication, I guess. I'm considering James Leitz in Slidell, La. I don't want to travel that far, but will. I hear Leitz is top notch? Does anyone have a recommend in my area (Mobile/Fairhope, Al)?

post #43 of 80
If you google him you'll find tons of info on him and the D Plane swing.
post #44 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Hill View Post

What other deadly accurate and potent swing can be explained in full (from the waist up in this case) in under a 1/2 hour? I gave every last detail of what I do.

Well, I guess none.. Since you put it this way I will go back and listen carefully to what is being mentioned.. I'm sorry for doubting you, it is a powerful and potent swing indeed, please accept my apologies!
post #45 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Hill View Post
 

What other deadly accurate and potent swing can be explained in full (from the waist up in this case) in under a 1/2 hour? I gave every last detail of what I do.

 

You failed to explain YOUR swing. I responded with several inaccuracies (both geometric and anatomical) and you haven't said anything.

post #46 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abu3baid View Post

Well, I guess none.. Since you put it this way I will go back and listen carefully to what is being mentioned.. I'm sorry for doubting you, it is a powerful and potent swing indeed, please accept my apologies!

Deadly accurate and potent swing..... Gotta say, I'd like one of those!


@Joe Hill, I asked earlier, but you may have missed it. Just for perspective, you give us a quick synopsis of your playing experience? Years playing, handicap, tournament experience/results, instruction that you've received, whatever...... Again, just to give us some additional perspective.

Thanks.
post #47 of 80
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

Here's my response, Joe.

 

I'll try to keep this short, but we'll see how good a job I do of that.

 

 

I'll start on the left.

 

This triangle thing is great in theory, except that you don't make a swing like this. Your right elbow bends, which I've illustrated on the left, which makes your left arm (both segments) raise quite a bit. This disrupts your triangle and has it pointing well above a plane that intersects the golf ball - in fact, your right upper arm and your entire left arm are no longer even contained in the same plane.

 

On the right, the green arrows indicate the direction hinging the club would move the clubhead and shaft in this position - which is why if the wrists are hinged/cocked, a club shaft that is anywhere near vertical to left of vertical involved a good amount of forearm rotation.

 

 

"That's a hundred-n-eighty degree turn. That's as high as the hands get right there."

 

I realize that you're talking about how this is the "basic concept" and you realize that "bones are curved" (or something). So my question then is "what's the point in discussing a triangle that is almost never a triangle in performing a real golf swing?" Why are you even spending time to discuss this?

 

You said "It's not like anything we've been taught…" and I would suggest that's a good thing, because nobody should swing that way, without bending the right elbow.

 

You said "This is a very, very powerful way" to swing the club and that "you motor the entire swing with the thorax." No it isn't. You've removed the entire right arm. If you removed the wrists too, and truly swung with just the thorax, you'd have a very, very slow golf swing. You'd probably not hit your driver 150 yards, let alone a pitching wedge.

 

Now you're bending the whole thing upward, because you say we can bend our elbows, and that they point down. I'd love to see a golf swing where your elbows point down and your left "elbow pit" especially is facing directly away from the golfer's body, as you've demonstrated.

 

Here's the simple geometry there: if you bend the right elbow, the left arm stays straight and lifts, completely destroying the triangle.

 

I just got to the part where you said the right elbow bending "does alter the triangle somewhat, but not a great degree. That's not even close, IMO. The left arm raises, completely destroying your triangle, as the left upper arm and the right upper arm are not even in the same plane. All parts of a triangle are in the same plane, and you've completely destroyed the triangle as soon as you bend the right elbow.

 

I'll admit I'm fast forwarding now. I made it almost 9 minutes before I started, though.

 

Also, btw, your spine is not a pencil, nor is it straight, nor do all parts of your spine turn equally (your swing would require a 90° hip turn as well, if your spine was like your pencil).

 

The club will not "hinge when it's ready to if you let it." Totally false. The club doesn't have a brain, or muscles, or elbows, or wrists. It doesn't "hinge when it's ready to." The golfer must hinge his wrists, which moves the clubhead.

 

I'm really fast forwarding now.

 

1. Your ulna is not where your thumb is. It's on the pinkie side of your hand, Joe.

2. The club "breaks" not between the triangle because… wait for it… you've rotated your forearms. That's why it "breaks" to the outside of your triangle.

 

I give up.

 


 

Here's my quick opinion, with all respect intended: you don't understand basic anatomy or geometry. Consequently, you're believing your feels over what is actually occurring, geometrically and anatomically.

 

Your ideas for the swing are easily disputed, and I'm done spending time thinking about this. I do not believe you could hit your driver 150 yards performing this swing as you seem to have described it, let alone a pitching wedge.

 

You're welcome to continue to post here, but please keep your posts within this thread, and maybe one or two others.

Can We make a deal? And don't give up. I'm getting a lot out of these conversations.

I don't mind being on probation. I'll limit my comments on this board to this thread only. That is my purpose here anyway. I want to put this swing concept up to the scrutiny of open minded professionals and swing enthusiasts. I should not be getting the distances I'm getting in my condition and my age, not to mention my lack of polish and proficiency. I promise you, when I manage to execute according to plan, all I do is rotate the torso. I never have to think about sequencing, timing, hinge, release, spine tilt, hip bump; nothing but rotate the torso, feel everything else, and utterly crush it. It's ecstatic to me. You want proof. I'm providing proof. I'm booked with James Leitz for June 5. I want to hear from this membership that Leitz is acceptable. I do not want to hear I hired some hack after the fact. I knew you'd be ok with Gring, but I've never heard of Leitz. If you are ok with him, he's it. 

Back to the deal, In return for staying on this thread only, may I have permission to respond in my desired fashion, which is one at a time, on this thread only?

This is what I mean by keeping the triangle relationship. I have never even thought or cared where the club hinged. I didn't even know until I recently filmed for the first time. Because my arms and hands are reasonably stable, there is only one place it can hinge. I never knew it was over the radius.

post #48 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Hill View Post

I promise you, when I manage to execute according to plan, all I do is rotate the torso. I never have to think about sequencing, timing, hinge, release, spine tilt, hip bump; nothing but rotate the torso, feel everything else, and utterly crush it.

You're confusing swing thoughts and feels with actual physical movements. Just because you're not thinking about it, or you're not feeling it, doesn't mean it's not happening.

I, myself, also prefer to swing with no swing thoughts. It's why I work so hard off the course to make improvements to my swing "automatic." I don't want to have to think about them when I'm playing, I just want the motions to happen on their own. I resort back to thoughts and feels on the course when I know I'm not doing something right in order to force myself to make the change I'm supposed to be making.

I'm still not quite following your triangle/hands on plane thing. It just kinda looks like you drew some arbitrary lines and declared that's the proper plane to be on.
post #49 of 80
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by billchao View Post


You're confusing swing thoughts and feels with actual physical movements. Just because you're not thinking about it, or you're not feeling it, doesn't mean it's not happening.


I'm still not quite following your triangle/hands on plane thing. It just kinda looks like you drew some arbitrary lines and declared that's the proper plane to be on.

Everyone keeps telling me I'm confusing thought and feel, and I'm aware how easy it is for that to occur, but I see that I'm close to doing what I think.

The hand plane is, with a neutral grip, the palms facing one another form a plane which closely corresponds with the spine angle, and it stays in that position throughout, in this swing concept, but not something I'm saying is "proper". The elbow line defines the base of the triangle. As long as the elbow line remains close to the shoulder plane line, the triangle is swinging on it's plane, keeping the mass of the arms in line with their direction of travel. In my sample swing, I allowed club momentum to pull my arms up, which put the triangle off plane. I try to resist that upward pull on the arms; that's my transition. It doesn't seem to hurt much for a little upward movement though, for my arms got right back on plane quickly. All this may seem complicated, but it makes for a lot fewer moving parts, something this creaky old boned swinger likes.

post #50 of 80

@Joe Hill, sorry for the brevity, but I've already spent enough time on this.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Hill View Post
 

I'm getting a lot out of these conversations.

 

I'm glad someone is… Lots of students pay for instruction… Should I start billing? I'll talk as much as you'd like if so! :-)

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Hill View Post
 

I should not be getting the distances I'm getting in my condition and my age, not to mention my lack of polish and proficiency.

 

I still don't believe that you do.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Hill View Post
 

I promise you, when I manage to execute according to plan, all I do is rotate the torso.

 

Bzzzzt. Wrong. Your right arm bends and your wrists hinge and cock. Additionally, your torso doesn't turn uniformly like a pencil: your hips turn less than your shoulders.

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Hill View Post
 

I never have to think about sequencing, timing, hinge, release, spine tilt, hip bump; nothing but rotate the torso, feel everything else, and utterly crush it.

 

As I've said now for quite some time, your feels are not reality, and you cannot teach everyone your feels, because they'll be different to everyone (unique to the individual).

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Hill View Post
 

You want proof. I'm providing proof. I'm booked with James Leitz for June 5. I want to hear from this membership that Leitz is acceptable.

 

He's fine, but what proof is that? Your video was proof of nothing, except perhaps how little you know about geometry and anatomy.

 

If you want to prove your distances, then show uncut video of the swing you make and the club you used and the full output of the TrackMan numbers on the screen.

 

It still won't prove the geometry/anatomy problems.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Hill View Post
 

Back to the deal, In return for staying on this thread only, may I have permission to respond in my desired fashion, which is one at a time, on this thread only?

 

Please multi-quote. It's not difficult. You don't need to ask "permission" - we don't ban or even punish people for not multi quoting. We simply ask that they do it as a courtesy to fellow members.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Hill View Post
 

This is what I mean by keeping the triangle relationship. I have never even thought or cared where the club hinged.

 

It does hinge, though. A fact that is ignored by your paper triangle/pencil video.

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Hill View Post
 

I didn't even know until I recently filmed for the first time.

 

And somehow you can say these things while also saying you are going to teach the world a great new golf swing, with book lessons and learning and all sorts of things to come before you even start to swing a club?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Hill View Post
 

 

And here?

 

 

As I said before, bending the right elbow lifts the left arm, completely destroying your triangle and the "plane" it was on.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by billchao View Post

You're confusing swing thoughts and feels with actual physical movements. Just because you're not thinking about it, or you're not feeling it, doesn't mean it's not happening.

 

QFT.

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by billchao View Post

I'm still not quite following your triangle/hands on plane thing. It just kinda looks like you drew some arbitrary lines and declared that's the proper plane to be on.

 

Ditto.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Hill View Post
 

Everyone keeps telling me I'm confusing thought and feel, and I'm aware how easy it is for that to occur, but I see that I'm close to doing what I think.

The hand plane is, with a neutral grip, the palms facing one another form a plane which closely corresponds with the spine angle, and it stays in that position throughout, in this swing concept, but not something I'm saying is "proper".

 

False.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Hill View Post
 

The elbow line defines the base of the triangle. As long as the elbow line remains close to the shoulder plane line, the triangle is swinging on it's plane,

 

See above. It doesn't.

 

Also, basic geometry: a line has no plane. If the triangle is formed by the two elbows and the butt of the club, then it is also not parallel to the shoulder tilt either (again, largely because you bend the right elbow). I said all this before, in my bigger post above, but you've ignored this basic geometry/anatomy.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Hill View Post
 

In my sample swing, I allowed club momentum to pull my arms up, which put the triangle off plane.

 

If you truly made a swing with no elbow bending, no wrist hinging/cocking, etc., then as I said before, I doubt you could hit a DRIVER 150 yards, let alone a wedge. I'm not sure Dustin Johnson could hit a driver 150 yards using only the turning of his torso to power a standard golf club.

post #51 of 80
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

If you want to prove your distances, then show uncut video of the swing you make and the club you used and the full output of the TrackMan numbers on the screen.

 

 

 

 

That's my intent. I don't know what equipment he has, but it is supposedly top of the line. I will publish the swing with the numbers he provides. I will not publish the entire session because this is not about Joe's lack of proficiency or polish, but about a swing concept. I see no need of further discussion until, so will say adieu for now.

post #52 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Hill View Post
 

That's my intent. I don't know what equipment he has, but it is supposedly top of the line. I will publish the swing with the numbers he provides. I will not publish the entire session because this is not about Joe's lack of proficiency or polish, but about a swing concept. I see no need of further discussion until, so will say adieu for now.

 

I asked to see an uncut video showing the setup, you hitting a ball, the club you used to hit that ball, and the results on the TrackMan with the many details available. That video is probably 30 seconds long.

 

But that video is almost entirely beside the point.

 

Your swing "theories" continue to display a severe lack of understanding of basic concepts, geometry, and anatomy. If you somehow can hit a PW 150 yards (without blading it), it will not prove much of anything because you will not have hit it with anything close to your swing theory.

post #53 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Hill View Post

That's my intent. I don't know what equipment he has, but it is supposedly top of the line. I will publish the swing with the numbers he provides. I will not publish the entire session because this is not about Joe's lack of proficiency or polish, but about a swing concept. I see no need of further discussion until, so will say adieu for now.

Joe, he has a complete website that shows he uses TrackMan. What Erik is requesting is quite simple.
post #54 of 80
Well...... @Joe Hill, how'd it go?
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