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Rule question....15th club....maybe this has been covered...

post #1 of 17
Thread Starter 

I was playing yesterday and on the 8th green someone had left a wedge by green. My partner and I had been playing and there had not been anyone in front of us for quite a while so I decided to pick it up and drop it off after the round was over. I was walking the course and using my microcart. I put the club by the umbrella and went on my round.

 

I thought about this later: Do I get dinged the 4 stroke penalty for having a 15th club? Or since it was deemed unusable, possibly no penalty as per 4-4c, but exactly the same...

post #2 of 17

4-4a/8

Retrieving Another Player's Lost Club

Q.A player carrying 14 clubs found another player's club on the course. He picked up the lost club, put it in his bag but did not use it, and handed it in at the pro shop when the round was completed. Was the player in breach of Rule 4-4afor carrying 15 clubs?

A.No.

post #3 of 17
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

4-4a/8

Retrieving Another Player's Lost Club

Q.A player carrying 14 clubs found another player's club on the course. He picked up the lost club, put it in his bag but did not use it, and handed it in at the pro shop when the round was completed. Was the player in breach of Rule 4-4afor carrying 15 clubs?

A.No.


Was this in the rule book? Or is it in the "decisions" portion. Thank for the answer. Never mind, I found it.

post #4 of 17
Decision.
post #5 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valleygolfer View Post
 


Was this in the rule book? Or is it in the "decisions" portion.

 

Any time there's a "Q" and an "A" it's a Decision. :)

post #6 of 17
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

Any time there's a "Q" and an "A" it's a Decision. :)


I never used the decision portion until now...

post #7 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

Any time there's a "Q" and an "A" it's a Decision. :)

In addition, decisions always contain an oblique stroke ie / . Rules don't

post #8 of 17

Big picture:   when you start a round with the max of 14 clubs.

 

It really doesn't matter what gets in your bag.  As long as you continue to just use the clubs you started with, you are fine.

post #9 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dormie1360 View Post
 

Big picture:   when you start a round with the max of 14 clubs.

 

It really doesn't matter what gets in your bag.  As long as you continue to just use the clubs you started with, you are fine.

 

This is an unclear section of the rules.

 

4-4a/1

When Club Is Considered Added

Q.A player who started the stipulated round with 14 clubs is putting poorly. Between the play of two holes and without unduly delaying play, the player takes the putter out of his bag and replaces it with another putter that was in his locker. Before he makes a stroke with any club, the player is advised that he is not permitted to add or replace a club. Accordingly, he replaces the second putter with his original putter, leaves the second putter at the clubhouse and continues play. Does he incur a penalty?

A.No. Although the player was not entitled to add or replace a club, he is not considered to be in breach of Rule 4-4a until he makes a stroke with any club while the added putter is in his possession.

The answer would be the same for a player who starts the stipulated round with fewer than 14 clubs and wants to add clubs to bring the total number to 14. This player may select from several clubs that are brought to him, provided that (1) he does not make a stroke with any club before he chooses a club to add, (2) this process does not unduly delay play (Rule 6-7), and (3) none of the clubs he ultimately adds have been selected for play by any other person playing on the course.

I doubt very much that if I start the round with one club (a driver), that I could add and carry 40 clubs with me so long as I only ever hit 14 of them (including the driver I hit off the first tee). I believe that you must make your selection immediately.

 

(Edit: See below.)

post #10 of 17

Question, If a player starts a round with only 13 clubs in his bag is it legal for him to take an adjustable club and change the settings to and fro as he sees fit throughout the round? Would this be considered a legal 14th club? I just remember Mickelson actually carried 2 drivers for a time and thought if this was something he was comfortable with then why not? I guess the concern would be who would make sure he puts the club back in only those 2 settings only? I guess he could tell an official he will be playing his driver in 2 different lofts today as needed and say the lofts are 8* and 9.5*.

post #11 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

I doubt very much that if I start the round with one club (a driver), that I could add and carry 40 clubs with me so long as I only ever hit 14 of them (including the driver I hit off the first tee). I believe that you must make your selection immediately.

 

Rule 4-4a clearly forbids that. You are limited to a maximum of 14 clubs when starting your stipulated round regardless whether you use every club or not.

post #12 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by flopster View Post
 

Question, If a player starts a round with only 13 clubs in his bag is it legal for him to take an adjustable club and change the settings to and fro as he sees fit throughout the round? Would this be considered a legal 14th club? I just remember Mickelson actually carried 2 drivers for a time and thought if this was something he was comfortable with then why not? I guess the concern would be who would make sure he puts the club back in only those 2 settings only? I guess he could tell an official he will be playing his driver in 2 different lofts today as needed and say the lofts are 8* and 9.5*.

 

No. See Appendix II, 1, b:

 

b. Adjustability
All clubs may incorporate features for weight adjustment. Other forms of
adjustability may also be permitted upon evaluation by the R&A. The following
requirements apply to all permissible methods of adjustment:
(i) the adjustment cannot be readily made;
(ii) all adjustable parts are firmly fixed and there is no reasonable
likelihood of them working loose during a round; and
(iii) all configurations of adjustment conform with the Rules.
During a stipulated round, the playing characteristics of a club must not be
purposely changed by adjustment or by any other means (see Rule 4-2a).

post #13 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignorant View Post
 

Rule 4-4a clearly forbids that. You are limited to a maximum of 14 clubs when starting your stipulated round regardless whether you use every club or not.

 

I didn't start my round with 14 clubs. I started with 1 (i.e. "fewer than 14").

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

I doubt very much that if I start the round with one club (a driver), that I could add and carry 40 clubs with me so long as I only ever hit 14 of them (including the driver I hit off the first tee). I believe that you must make your selection immediately.

 

Now to correct my earlier statement… I misread the relevant part of the Decision, which I'll bold now:

 

The answer would be the same for a player who starts the stipulated round with fewer than 14 clubs and wants to add clubs to bring the total number to 14. This player may select from several clubs that are brought to him, provided that (1) he does not make a stroke with any club before he chooses a club to add, (2) this process does not unduly delay play (Rule 6-7), and (3) none of the clubs he ultimately adds have been selected for play by any other person playing on the course.

 

I had originally read that as basically "making a stroke with the club he chooses" but it instead clearly says making a stroke with any club. Not just one of the 40 he wants to hit.

 

So, my earlier statement that it's unclear is inaccurate.

 

Which leaves me puzzled as to this, again:

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dormie1360 View Post
 

Big picture:   when you start a round with the max of 14 clubs.

 

It really doesn't matter what gets in your bag.  As long as you continue to just use the clubs you started with, you are fine.

 

I don't believe that's accurate.

 

If I start with 14 clubs, someone can't bring me more clubs to carry in my bag, because then my opponents would have to keep track of whether I was using the new clubs or not. The Rules allow you to be courteous and to carry a lost club back to the pro shop - I don't believe they allow you to be brought 10 new drivers, forcing your fellow competitors or opponents to keep track of which is which.

post #14 of 17
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignorant View Post

Rule 4-4a clearly forbids that. You are limited to a maximum of 14 clubs when starting your stipulated round regardless whether you use every club or not.

I think this a closer statement, for example, 1 club in his bag to start a round but 40 clubs available to use if requested until he reached 14 and no longer could add anymore clubs during the round. He would have to go to the club house and retrieve or have a separate entity bring him each club when needed to use them.
post #15 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

I didn't start my round with 14 clubs. I started with 1 (i.e. "fewer than 14").

 

 

Now to correct my earlier statement… I misread the relevant part of the Decision, which I'll bold now:

 

The answer would be the same for a player who starts the stipulated round with fewer than 14 clubs and wants to add clubs to bring the total number to 14. This player may select from several clubs that are brought to him, provided that (1) he does not make a stroke with any club before he chooses a club to add, (2) this process does not unduly delay play (Rule 6-7), and (3) none of the clubs he ultimately adds have been selected for play by any other person playing on the course.

 

I had originally read that as basically "making a stroke with the club he chooses" but it instead clearly says making a stroke with any club. Not just one of the 40 he wants to hit.

 

So, my earlier statement that it's unclear is inaccurate.

 

Which leaves me puzzled as to this, again:

 

 

I don't believe that's accurate.

 

If I start with 14 clubs, someone can't bring me more clubs to carry in my bag, because then my opponents would have to keep track of whether I was using the new clubs or not. The Rules allow you to be courteous and to carry a lost club back to the pro shop - I don't believe they allow you to be brought 10 new drivers, forcing your fellow competitors or opponents to keep track of which is which.

 

 

Hi Iacas,

 

 

Here's my opinion concerning your hypo, the player started with 14 clubs and is limited to the 14 selected.  If the player did not use one of the additional clubs, there would be no breach under R4-4a.  Now if there were any concerns from the player's marker as to whether the player used one of these clubs, the committee would have to decide.  (Questions like, how did you keep the clubs separate?, Why did you ask to carry 10 drivers?)  As far as an opponent in match play, the opponent would first have to make a claim, and then the committee would have to decide.

 

Looking at the decision you quoted, the player has less than 14 clubs and wishes to add clubs.  The player must select the club(s) he wishes to add and must do so before his next stroke.

 

As to the OP's original question, the player could find a club on every hole, they could be all the same make and model of clubs he currently has.....they could all be drivers.  As long as he does not use them I don't see a breach under 4-4a.

post #16 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valleygolfer View Post


I think this a closer statement, for example, 1 club in his bag to start a round but 40 clubs available to use if requested until he reached 14 and no longer could add anymore clubs during the round. He would have to go to the club house and retrieve or have a separate entity bring him each club when needed to use them.

 

4-4a/16

Status of Additional Clubs Being Carried for Player and of Person Carrying Them

Q.A player begins his stipulated round with ten clubs carried by his caddie. The player has also asked another person to walk along with the group and carry eight more clubs. During the round, the player intends to add from the clubs carried by the other person. Is such an arrangement permissible?

A.No. As the player intends to add from such clubs during the round, the eight clubs count towards his total. The player is, therefore, in breach of Rule 4-4a for starting the stipulated round with more than 14 clubs. In addition, the other person is acting as a second caddie in breach of Rule 6-4.

As different acts have resulted in two Rules being breached, multiple penalties would apply (see Principle 5 of Decision 1-4/12).

post #17 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dormie1360 View Post
 

Here's my opinion concerning your hypo, the player started with 14 clubs and is limited to the 14 selected.  If the player did not use one of the additional clubs, there would be no breach under R4-4a.  Now if there were any concerns from the player's marker as to whether the player used one of these clubs, the committee would have to decide.  (Questions like, how did you keep the clubs separate?, Why did you ask to carry 10 drivers?)  As far as an opponent in match play, the opponent would first have to make a claim, and then the committee would have to decide.

 

I agree, but I also don't think the committee would be wrong in resolving against the player if there is any doubt at all.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dormie1360 View Post
 

Looking at the decision you quoted, the player has less than 14 clubs and wishes to add clubs.  The player must select the club(s) he wishes to add and must do so before his next stroke.

 

Yes, I said that already.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dormie1360 View Post
 

As to the OP's original question, the player could find a club on every hole, they could be all the same make and model of clubs he currently has.....they could all be drivers.  As long as he does not use them I don't see a breach under 4-4a.

 

Of course, but that doesn't happen. Nor does someone bringing ten drivers out to you, so it's all pretty close to moot anyway.

 

All that said, they could easily clarify or add a Decision that clarifies the issue of a player purposefully carrying extra clubs (not as a favor or a courtesy to someone with a lost club) if it's possible they may cause confusion as to which clubs he's hit.

 

The Rules are not permanent - they can be clarified and re-shaped. Perhaps in ten years or fifty you won't be allowed to carry extra clubs around so long as you promise not to hit them. After all, you can't use a laser with the slope measuring capabilities, even if you "promise" not to use that feature.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogolf View Post
 

4-4a/16

Status of Additional Clubs Being Carried for Player and of Person Carrying Them

Q.A player begins his stipulated round with ten clubs carried by his caddie. The player has also asked another person to walk along with the group and carry eight more clubs. During the round, the player intends to add from the clubs carried by the other person. Is such an arrangement permissible?

A.No. As the player intends to add from such clubs during the round, the eight clubs count towards his total. The player is, therefore, in breach of Rule 4-4a for starting the stipulated round with more than 14 clubs. In addition, the other person is acting as a second caddie in breach of Rule 6-4.

As different acts have resulted in two Rules being breached, multiple penalties would apply (see Principle 5 of Decision 1-4/12).

 

Yeah, that answers that one pretty clearly.

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