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Correct Score Card Help

post #1 of 42
Thread Starter 
Hi
 
I play golf at a local private club in the Tuesday Night men's league. This year the club brought in to effect a forward tee program for golfers over 70 with a handicap of 20+. The club also changed the stroke holes for the forward tee markers from the whites or blue markers.
 
The new score cards have not been printed yet and the old cards do not reflect the men's forward tee stroke holes. The Pro shop makes out the cards for the individual matches and marks the strokes on the card for each team. Well, 5 weeks in to the season it was noticed the Pro shop did not stroke the cards according to the forward tee's for some teams. The club determined that they would go back and re-stroke every card and recalculate the matches. For some teams they won their match and others lost their match due to the recalculated cards.
 
Is this OK to re-stroke a card after a match has been played to determine the winner? I would have thought USGA rules   Rule 6-2a.   Decision 6-2a/1 and Decision 6-2a/2. would be in effect.
 
Help us out please. Our local pro & committee feel the cards should be recalculated and some of us players do not.
 
Thank You
post #2 of 42

All matches stand as originally played.  The Committee has no authority to change the results.  Rule 34.

post #3 of 42

I'm going to defer to @Fourputt, @Rulesman, @Dormie1360 et al, but.....

 

..... given the nature of match play, my initial thought is that the committee really has two options.  Letting the match results stand, or replaying the matches.  I don't think restroking the holes and changing the result is an option. 

post #4 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post
 

I'm going to defer to @Fourputt, @Rulesman, @Dormie1360 et al, but.....

 

..... given the nature of match play, my initial thought is that the committee really has two options.  Letting the match results stand, or replaying the matches.  I don't think restroking the holes and changing the result is an option. 

 

This^^

 

The committee has no authorization to change the results.

post #5 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post
 

I'm going to defer to @Fourputt, @Rulesman, @Dormie1360 et al, but.....

 

..... given the nature of match play, my initial thought is that the committee really has two options.  Letting the match results stand, or replaying the matches.  I don't think restroking the holes and changing the result is an option.

 

There are instances where, due to a committee error, the committee should change the results of the competition.  See D34-1b/6 and D6-2b/3.

 

I agree with everyone that the matches should stand as played.  You could null and void the matches and  replay, ( I wouldn't do this...I don't think you can show where players were seriously disadvantaged for the entire match),  but you definitely shouldn't sit down and change the cards.  This absolutely changes the essence of match play.  A player always knowing how he stands during the play of a match.

post #6 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dormie1360 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post
 

I'm going to defer to @Fourputt, @Rulesman, @Dormie1360 et al, but.....

 

..... given the nature of match play, my initial thought is that the committee really has two options.  Letting the match results stand, or replaying the matches.  I don't think restroking the holes and changing the result is an option.

 

There are instances where, due to a committee error, the committee should change the results of the competition.  See D34-1b/6 and D6-2b/3.

 

I agree with everyone that the matches should stand as played.  You could null and void the matches and  replay, ( I wouldn't do this...I don't think you can show where players were seriously disadvantaged for the entire match),  but you definitely shouldn't sit down and change the cards.  This absolutely changes the essence of match play.  A player always knowing how he stands during the play of a match.

 

You don't see any reason to invalidate a match where the outcome is reversed based on where strokes were incorrectly given?  That seems to me to be the essence of why such an option is available to the committee.

post #7 of 42

A match is played in conditions known to both players. Their strategy and tactics will be based on this knowledge.

 

To change the results of matches based un unknown stroke holes would be impossible. Who knows what concessions there were on the day and what concessions might or might or might not have been given in the different circumstances.

post #8 of 42

A couple of things - how can the Committee go back and "redo" match results when no scorecards are required in match play?  This "smells" like a combination of stroke play and match play, which the Rules prohibit.

Look at Decisions 6-2a/2, 6-2a/5, and 6-2a/6 where wrong handicaps or wrong handicap allowances or stroke applied at a wrong hole - all indicate the Committee should take no action and the matches should stand as played. 

Of course, there have been Committees that have been known to compound their initial error by making a second error while trying to correct the first.  Perhaps such Committees should be relieved of their responsibilities?  :)

post #9 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogolf View Post
 

A couple of things - how can the Committee go back and "redo" match results when no scorecards are required in match play?  This "smells" like a combination of stroke play and match play, which the Rules prohibit.

Look at Decisions 6-2a/2, 6-2a/5, and 6-2a/6 where wrong handicaps or wrong handicap allowances or stroke applied at a wrong hole - all indicate the Committee should take no action and the matches should stand as played. 

Of course, there have been Committees that have been known to compound their initial error by making a second error while trying to correct the first.  Perhaps such Committees should be relieved of their responsibilities?  :)

 

In all of those decisions the players were at fault in one way or another.  In the OP's case, the committee is at fault and the players played to handicap allocations that were subsequently corrected by the committee.  The matches affected by the change should be invalidated and replayed.

post #10 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

In all of those decisions the players were at fault in one way or another.  In the OP's case, the committee is at fault and the players played to handicap allocations that were subsequently corrected by the committee.  The matches affected by the change should be invalidated and replayed.


I could accept either "stand as played" or "must be replayed" as a decision from the Committee, but could not accept re-jigging the results, particularly since match play does not require a scorecard, and the Committee can not insist on one.

All the Committee had to do was publish the stroke allocation table for the holes and leave everything else up to the competitors.

post #11 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogolf View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

In all of those decisions the players were at fault in one way or another.  In the OP's case, the committee is at fault and the players played to handicap allocations that were subsequently corrected by the committee.  The matches affected by the change should be invalidated and replayed.


I could accept either "stand as played" or "must be replayed" as a decision from the Committee, but could not accept re-jigging the results, particularly since match play does not require a scorecard, and the Committee can not insist on one.

All the Committee had to do was publish the stroke allocation table for the holes and leave everything else up to the competitors.

 

I still give the nod for replaying them.  Changing the results by editing the scorecards is just stupid.

post #12 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogolf View Post
 

A couple of things - how can the Committee go back and "redo" match results when no scorecards are required in match play?  This "smells" like a combination of stroke play and match play, which the Rules prohibit.

Look at Decisions 6-2a/2, 6-2a/5, and 6-2a/6 where wrong handicaps or wrong handicap allowances or stroke applied at a wrong hole - all indicate the Committee should take no action and the matches should stand as played.

Of course, there have been Committees that have been known to compound their initial error by making a second error while trying to correct the first.  Perhaps such Committees should be relieved of their responsibilities?  :)

My sentiments also. The buffoon who thinks he is above the Rules of Golf should be relieved of his responsibilities. A letter was written to the USGA asking the same question as my original post. The USGA contacted us today & determined the match stands as played and cannot be changed by any committee or individual. This buffoon is the same person who argues when the Pro determines the ball will be played "Up" due to conditions. He feels the game was not intended to be played "Up". Go figure????

 

On the 1st tee I cannot tell you which holes are the #1 stroke hole to the 18th stroke hole as none of the old score cards reflect the now/new forward tee stroke holes. So, how could I play a legitimate match not knowing which holes I'm giving or getting strokes on.

post #13 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfer6760 View Post
 

My sentiments also. The buffoon who thinks he is above the Rules of Golf should be relieved of his responsibilities. A letter was written to the USGA asking the same question as my original post. The USGA contacted us today & determined the match stands as played and cannot be changed by any committee or individual. This buffoon is the same person who argues when the Pro determines the ball will be played "Up" due to conditions. He feels the game was not intended to be played "Up". Go figure????

 

On the 1st tee I cannot tell you which holes are the #1 stroke hole to the 18th stroke hole as none of the old score cards reflect the now/new forward tee stroke holes. So, how could I play a legitimate match not knowing which holes I'm giving or getting strokes on.

 

It is the Committee's responsibility to publish a stroke allocation table.  It is not required that such be recorded on any scorecard, and scorecards are not required in match play.  If the table is available, figure out which holes strokes are to be given or received.

post #14 of 42

You'd be surprised how many courses don't allocate their holes correctly in the first place. (Section 17 of the USGA Handicap Manual)

 

It is not based on how difficult a hole is to par.

post #15 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dormie1360 View Post
 

You'd be surprised how many courses don't allocate their holes correctly in the first place. (Section 17 of the USGA Handicap Manual)

 

It is not based on how difficult a hole is to par.

 

Yep.  My course has it right.  The two most difficult par 4's on the course are the 4th and 6th handicap holes.  #1 handicap hole is the shortest par 4 on the course (requiring a layup off the tee and then a second shot over water - easy for the scratch player but can be quite difficult for the bogey player), and the #2 handicap hole (highest on the back 9) is a par 5.

post #16 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dormie1360 View Post
 

You'd be surprised how many courses don't allocate their holes correctly in the first place. (Section 17 of the USGA Handicap Manual)

 

It is not based on how difficult a hole is to par.

 

The USGA give an alternative method. CONGU, the EGA and Golf Australia all have slightly different processes with the same objective.

post #17 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogolf View Post
 

 

It is the Committee's responsibility to publish a stroke allocation table.  It is not required that such be recorded on any scorecard, and scorecards are not required in match play.  If the table is available, figure out which holes strokes are to be given or received.

There is not a forward tee stroke hole table available yet. It's a document in progress by the committee that has not been made available to the membership. The course recently put in to effect the forward tee program and received approval for the new stroke holes for the forward tee's. In my opinion, it's a case of the cart is ahead of the horse. The committee has not finished putting together the forward tee program and the League Administrator wants to use the program back to the 1st match.

 

Update:  The League Administrator was made aware of the rules of golf that the matches stand as played. The League Administrator disregarded the determination of the committee and changed the match results to reflect the unpublished forward tee's stroke holes. He went back to every card (32 teams @ 5 weeks) and recalculated the matches using the unpublished forward tee stroke holes.

 

How ironic!!!!!  His team is in first place now :-)

post #18 of 42

Sigh.    :no:

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