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Picking up a provisional before original is found

post #1 of 31
Thread Starter 
Can you please provide a ruling on the following. Last night I was playing a match and my opponent on the 18th thought he may have hit his tee shot out of bounds. He then hit his provisional to the bottom of the hill and played a second shot with the provisional. This second with the provisional was hit into the long grass just infront of him. Meaning that the ball was still well back from where the original May have been. He then picked up his provisional ball. Following this he then found his original and played it.

My understanding is that the idea of a provisional is to save time and should be struck up to the point of where the ball may be found? Does the fact that the provisional was found and picked up effect this? Given that clearly at this point the idea of the provisional is no longer to save time? I would have thought that if the provisional is played a second time it should be continued to be played until the point in which it would be reasonable to look for the original ball?

The provisional was not lost and was just picked up as my opponent didn't want to play it. To me this is using the rules both ways by this I mean if you are going to play the provisional a second time to save time (reasonable and allowed) you should play it a third time and not pick it up when you have only hit it a couple of yards in front into a bad lie. As surely this defeats the point of the time and distance rules.
post #2 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Se123 View Post

Can you please provide a ruling on the following. Last night I was playing a match and my opponent on the 18th thought he may have hit his tee shot out of bounds. He then hit his provisional to the bottom of the hill and played a second shot with the provisional. This second with the provisional was hit into the long grass just infront of him. Meaning that the ball was still well back from where the original May have been. He then picked up his provisional ball. Following this he then found his original and played it.

My understanding is that the idea of a provisional is to save time and should be struck up to the point of where the ball may be found? Does the fact that the provisional was found and picked up effect this? Given that clearly at this point the idea of the provisional is no longer to save time? I would have thought that if the provisional is played a second time it should be continued to be played until the point in which it would be reasonable to look for the original ball?

The provisional was not lost and was just picked up as my opponent didn't want to play it. To me this is using the rules both ways by this I mean if you are going to play the provisional a second time to save time (reasonable and allowed) you should play it a third time and not pick it up when you have only hit it a couple of yards in front into a bad lie. As surely this defeats the point of the time and distance rules.

 

Technically he was within the rules, used the provisional as a practice ball for two swings.

post #3 of 31

I havent researched, but I am guessing that he was fortunate to find his first ball.

 

If he had not found the first, it probably would have been loss of hole in match play and DQ in stroke play.

post #4 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Se123 View Post

Can you please provide a ruling on the following. Last night I was playing a match and my opponent on the 18th thought he may have hit his tee shot out of bounds. He then hit his provisional to the bottom of the hill and played a second shot with the provisional. This second with the provisional was hit into the long grass just infront of him. Meaning that the ball was still well back from where the original May have been. He then picked up his provisional ball. Following this he then found his original and played it.

My understanding is that the idea of a provisional is to save time and should be struck up to the point of where the ball may be found? Does the fact that the provisional was found and picked up effect this? Given that clearly at this point the idea of the provisional is no longer to save time? I would have thought that if the provisional is played a second time it should be continued to be played until the point in which it would be reasonable to look for the original ball?

The provisional was not lost and was just picked up as my opponent didn't want to play it. To me this is using the rules both ways by this I mean if you are going to play the provisional a second time to save time (reasonable and allowed) you should play it a third time and not pick it up when you have only hit it a couple of yards in front into a bad lie. As surely this defeats the point of the time and distance rules.

 

Once he played the provisional, after not finding his first the provisional is now the ball in play and the first ball is out of play. He broke the rules.

post #5 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post
 

 

Once he played the provisional, after not finding his first the provisional is now the ball in play and the first ball is out of play. He broke the rules.

Not true, you are allowed to play the provisional as long as you have not passed the original ball. (according to the story, they had not looked for the original yet)

post #6 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by meenman View Post

Not true, you are allowed to play the provisional as long as you have not passed the original ball. (according to the story, they had not looked for the original yet)
What? Once the a subsequent shot is taken with the provisional, the original is effectively declared lost.
post #7 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by billchao View Post


What? Once the a subsequent shot is taken with the provisional, the original is effectively declared lost.

once again - you are allowed to play the provisional until you have passed where your original ball is thought to be

post #8 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by meenman View Post
 

Not true, you are allowed to play the provisional as long as you have not passed the original ball. (according to the story, they had not looked for the original yet)

 

I stand corrected :whistle:

 

Quote:

b. When Provisional Ball Becomes Ball in Play

The player may play a provisional ball until he reaches the place where the original ball is likely to be. If he makes a stroke with the provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the holethan that place, the original ball is lost and the provisional ball becomes theball in playunder penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1).

If the original ball is lost outside a water hazard or is out of bounds, theprovisional ball becomes the ball in playunder penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1).

Exception: If it is known or virtually certain that the original ball, that has not been found, has been moved by an outside agency (Rule 18-1), or is in anobstruction (Rule 24-3) or an abnormal ground condition (Rule 25-1c), the player may proceed under the applicable Rule.

 

Though I will say this, the guy who picked up his provisional ball because he hit it into the weeds is playing with fire. Because, if he didn't find his first ball then the provisional ball would be in play. This means that he picked up a ball in play. Which would be a penalty and he would have to go back to the tall grass and return his ball and play it from there. At least I believe so.

post #9 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by meenman View Post

once again - you are allowed to play the provisional until you have passed where your original ball is thought to be
Wow, I've been playing that wrong all this time! Interesting, thanks for the information.
post #10 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post
 

 

I stand corrected :whistle:

 

 

Though I will say this, the guy who picked up his provisional ball because he hit it into the weeds is playing with fire. Because, if he didn't find his first ball then the provisional ball would be in play. This means that he picked up a ball in play. Which would be a penalty and he would have to go back to the tall grass and return his ball and play it from there. At least I believe so.

 

 

This is correct.  1PS and he would have to replace his provisional from where he picked it up.

 

No limit as to the number of times you may play your provisional provided it is not played from where, or a point closer to the hole than, the place where the first ball is likely to be.  Key point is "likely", which doesn't necessarily mean where it actually is.

 

27-2b/4

Provisional Ball Played from Beyond Where Original Ball Likely to Be But Not Beyond Where Original Ball Found

 

Q.A player, believing his tee shot might be lost or in a road defined as out of bounds, played a provisional ball. He searched for his original ball but did not find it. He went forward and played his provisional ball. Then he went farther forward and found his original ball in bounds. The original ball must have bounced down the road and then come back into bounds, because it was found much farther from the tee than anticipated. Was the original ball still the ball in play?

 

A.No. The player played a stroke with the provisional ball from a point nearer the hole than the place where the original ball was likely to be. When he did so, the provisional ball became the ball in play and the original ball was lost (Rule 27-2b).

The place where the original ball in fact lay was irrelevant.

post #11 of 31

@meenman is correct. He was very lucky that his original was found. I suspect he knew it was findable when he picked up his provisional.

post #12 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by billchao View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by meenman View Post

Not true, you are allowed to play the provisional as long as you have not passed the original ball. (according to the story, they had not looked for the original yet)
What? Once the a subsequent shot is taken with the provisional, the original is effectively declared lost.

 

No it isn't.  The provisional ball is still just provisional until the original ball is lost, found out of bounds, or the provisional ball is played from a point at or closer to the hole than where the original ball is thought to lie.

 

If the original ball had not been found in bounds after the player picked up the provisional, he would have simply been required to replace the provisional ball and take one more penalty stroke for moving it in breach of Rule 18.  Since the original ball was found, he was correct to play on with that ball.

post #13 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

No it isn't.  The provisional ball is still just provisional until the original ball is lost, found out of bounds, or the provisional ball is played from a point at or closer to the hole than where the original ball is thought to lie.

If the original ball had not been found in bounds after the player picked up the provisional, he would have simply been required to replace the provisional ball and take one more penalty stroke for moving it in breach of Rule 18.  Since the original ball was found, he was correct to play on with that ball.
Thanks for the explanation. I'm not all that surprised that I learned the wrong information. I need to really study the rulebook objectively, without making assumptions that I know certain rules already.
post #14 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Se123 View Post

Can you please provide a ruling on the following. Last night I was playing a match and my opponent on the 18th thought he may have hit his tee shot out of bounds. He then hit his provisional to the bottom of the hill and played a second shot with the provisional. This second with the provisional was hit into the long grass just infront of him. Meaning that the ball was still well back from where the original May have been. He then picked up his provisional ball. Following this he then found his original and played it.

My understanding is that the idea of a provisional is to save time and should be struck up to the point of where the ball may be found? Does the fact that the provisional was found and picked up effect this? Given that clearly at this point the idea of the provisional is no longer to save time? I would have thought that if the provisional is played a second time it should be continued to be played until the point in which it would be reasonable to look for the original ball?

The provisional was not lost and was just picked up as my opponent didn't want to play it. To me this is using the rules both ways by this I mean if you are going to play the provisional a second time to save time (reasonable and allowed) you should play it a third time and not pick it up when you have only hit it a couple of yards in front into a bad lie. As surely this defeats the point of the time and distance rules.

Playing a provisional ball is optional.

Playing a provisional ball up to the point where your ball is likely to be is optional.

Playing a provisional ball out of junk is optional.  (The player may have figured that he lies 4 in deep grass and will lose the hole anyway unless he finds the original.)

 

I'm guessing that you lost the hole and are grasping at straws to find a way to change the result.

post #15 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by edwjmcgrath View Post
 

Playing a provisional ball is optional.

Playing a provisional ball up to the point where your ball is likely to be is optional.

Playing a provisional ball out of junk is optional.  (The player may have figured that he lies 4 in deep grass and will lose the hole anyway unless he finds the original.)

 

I'm guessing that you lost the hole and are grasping at straws to find a way to change the result.

 

Or he just didn't know the full extend of the rules. Why must a person have a hidden agenda? 

post #16 of 31
Thread Starter 

My guess is your wrong. Irrespective I was looking for the answer so I know what to do should this occur again as I didnt know the rule and it seemed unfair to me. However this has now been clarified. Thanks for your response and as a matter of point I'm not sure you can retrospectively change a match play result once the match has been finished and at no point have I suggested this. This is a section on a forum about rules so i cant see why you would take offence to someone asking for clarification.

post #17 of 31
Thread Starter 

Thanks Saevel25. And you are correct! I didnt know the rules and was seeking clarification. Strange that Edward would use that as an opportunity to insult someone on a forum! Each to their own and thanks for clarifying this. Clearly others were confused to and hopefully cleared up for us that didnt know.

post #18 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Se123 View Post
 

Thanks Saevel25. And you are correct! I didnt know the rules and was seeking clarification. Strange that Edward would use that as an opportunity to insult someone on a forum! Each to their own and thanks for clarifying this. Clearly others were confused to and hopefully cleared up for us that didnt know.

Just ignore responses like that @Se123.  There will always be cranky posters.  And thanks for asking the question.  I was not clear on this either.

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