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Kate Upton upset, but misinformed, about country club policy - Page 10

post #163 of 209

We are not questioning your ability to discriminate.  This conversation is like this:

 

Q: Why would a club want to keep women out on Saturday mornings? 

 

A: Its their club, if they want to keep women out they can.

 

Q: Well, ok, sure they can, but seems pointless alienation.  Why would they want to keep women out on Saturdays?

 

A: In my business, sometimes I discriminate against old people!!

 

Q: Uh, OK, that's strange I guess, but why do you want women off your course on Saturdays?

 

A: This has nothing to do with race.

 

Q: OK, I know that.  I want to know why you don't women on your course with you.  Its weird.

 

A: WHAT ARE YOU A GOLF CLUB MANAGER

 

--

 

We are not questioning your ability to do so legally.  We are not questioning if there are legitimate basis for other discrimination, nor are we questioning that discrimination still exists in our society, or that members of this board take part in it - rightly or wrongly - from time to time.  However, some of us don't see the point in alienating half the population of the earth for no gain, and would like to see the practice ended.

 

We are not against discrimination per se.  We are against pointless discrimination.

 

We are asking a simple question:

 

Why have the rule?

post #164 of 209
Thread Starter 
@chasm, If you continues to behave inappropriately you will be restricted from the thread and possibly put in the penalty box. You can debate ideas, even call ideas stupid, but we historically draw the line at calling people names
post #165 of 209
This argument is so ridiculous. Typical example of people arguing simply to argue. It's a private club and they make their own rules! The club has chosen two different days for league play, one for women and one for men. If the women don't like the day... TOO BAD. Don't play there. Obviously the female members of that club are okay with the setup, but chasm has decided it's his duty to speak on their behalf. I just can't grasp it.
post #166 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnclayton1982 View Post
 

We are not questioning your ability to do so legally.

 

I really have no idea to whom you're responding since you didn't quote, but I'll assume me, because I've said a few times that "discrimination" has a "legal" connotation to it.

 

I get that. But the two are closely linked. It's not discrimination because I charge more for an adult. It's not discrimination because you only let kids order kids meals. It's not even really discrimination that Tiger can't play in a Champions Tour or a U.S. Kids Golf event. Or the U.S. Amateur or Mid-Am for that matter..

 

Not legally, and not morally.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnclayton1982 View Post
 

However, some of us don't see the point in alienating half the population of the earth for no gain, and would like to see the practice ended.

 

Who the hell says they feel alienated? Where's the evidence of this? For all you know, the women at the club suggested it. Maybe they were tired of playing with the guys, so in order to give the guys their "golf fix" for the weekend, they let them all play Saturday morning, then have the course more to themselves in the afternoon.

 

For this to be "morally wrong," the women at the club probably have to feel that they're being slighted. Do they?

 

I've belonged to a few clubs with similar policies. At each of them, the women enjoyed their separate times from the men (and vice versa) a few days a week, often during leagues. The women often got fewer such times, but… there were dramatically fewer women, so they got more time as a ratio of membership count.

 

They didn't feel slighted. They didn't feel they were discriminated against. They liked the arrangement.

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnclayton1982 View Post
 

We are asking a simple question: Why have the rule?

 

Ask them. For all you know, the women fully support the rule.

post #167 of 209
I farted pretty bad on an airplane one time and everybody was upset at me.

I think they were totally just discriminating against my inability to hold it in... Like medical discrimination or something.

I hope Kate reads this and decides it is important enough to back me publicly and help bring awareness to the discrimination I experienced!
post #168 of 209

Why don't we just let things be?

 

If enough members object to the way their PRIVATE club is being managed, the members can leave and the club will disolve or adjust and try to survive.

Let the market handle it.

.

 

It doesn't matter one iota what anyone else thinks any way.

Lets just agree that Kate Upton a hottie and leave it at that.

.

 

FWIW: this is a nice way of me saying I'M REALLY GETT'N TIRED OF THIS THREAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:pound:

post #169 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by BallMarker View Post
 

Why don't we just let things be?

 

If enough members object to the way their PRIVATE club is being managed, the members can leave and the club will disolve or adjust and try to survive.

Let the market handle it.

.

 

It doesn't matter one iota what anyone else thinks any way.

Lets just agree that Kate Upton a hottie and leave it at that.

.

 

FWIW: this is a nice way of me saying I'M REALLY GETT'N TIRED OF THIS THREAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:pound:

 

Then why are you still bothering to read it and post in it?  Nobody's twisting your arm.

post #170 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

Then why are you still bothering to read it and post in it?  Nobody's twisting your arm.
And I think I'd say the same thing to any women that were offended by the policy in these clubs were talking about. ;). "Why are you a member here? Nobody's twisting your arm." :)
post #171 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

Then why are you still bothering to read it and post in it?  Nobody's twisting your arm.

No they're not.

Just voicing my distain for useless arguements.

Sometimes it take someone of your ilk to remind me I shouldn't part take in useless conversation.

.

Now back to golf.

post #172 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnclayton1982 View Post

We are not questioning your ability to discriminate.  This conversation is like this:

Q: Why would a club want to keep women out on Saturday mornings? 

A: Its their club, if they want to keep women out they can.

Q: Well, ok, sure they can, but seems pointless alienation.  Why would they want to keep women out on Saturdays?

A: In my business, sometimes I discriminate against old people!!

Q: Uh, OK, that's strange I guess, but why do you want women off your course on Saturdays?

A: This has nothing to do with race.

Q: OK, I know that.  I want to know why you don't women on your course with you.  Its weird.

A: WHAT ARE YOU A GOLF CLUB MANAGER

--

We are not questioning your ability to do so legally.  We are not questioning if there are legitimate basis for other discrimination, nor are we questioning that discrimination still exists in our society, or that members of this board take part in it - rightly or wrongly - from time to time.  However, some of us don't see the point in alienating half the population of the earth for no gain, and would like to see the practice ended.

We are not against discrimination per se.  We are against pointless discrimination.

We are asking a simple question:

Why have the rule?

This. Exactly. 10 pages and no answer.
post #173 of 209
You want an answer? are you sure? okay I'll indulge you. Since both of the actual clubs that insired this argument actually have no such policy, lets talk about the Hypothecial Meadows Country Club.
Scenario 1. They were having a problem on Saturdays. It seems that they were extremely busy in the morning and golf course would almost empty out by 1 to 2 in the afternoon. The staff was being over taxed and flooded with complaints about slow play every saturday morning and sat around with nothing to do in the afternoon. Many of the complaints came from men, mostly better golfers who were complaing about the slow group of women or couples in front of them (I don't care how many female freinds you have who are speed demons, women do in fact on average play slower than men). So the club tries to instuitute this policy and what they find is that it does, in fact, more evenly distibute traffic throughout the day as well as speed up play in the morning. Those couples and ladies groups who changed their tee times to Saturday afternoon actually found that they had a more relaxing round themselves not having to worry about the foursome of (male) single digits constanly pressureing them from behind and finding it easier keeping up with the group in front. everybody is happy (well everbody but you).
Scenario 2. Hypothetical ASprings Country Club has alway been very female freindly so much so that their membership was nearly forty percent female. But at this peak female membership they start to notice a trend. male members are dropping their memberships at an alarming rate and the club is starting to sffer financially as a result. When they polled these men to find out why the answers were all the same; "Pace of play is just too slow here because there are too many women on the course". So some young assistant manager has a brilliant suggestion. " lets set aside five hours on Saturday for men only". And with the blessing of the female members they institue this policy and low and behold, male membership is on the rise again. Financial crisis averted and everyone is happy (except YOU).
Scenario 3. (you'll like this one). one day the head honcho of Hypothetical Hills Country Club wants to go out for his usual Saturday morning round of golf and he and his buddy are paired up with a couple of Ladies. On the first tee Honcho and freind fire up a couple of cubans and one of the ladies asks him to "please put that out, the smell make me nausious" MMMPH, FINE. No cigars. around the sixth hole and a few beers in Honch walks up to a tree unzips his pants and feels an unapproving glare burning a hole in the back of his head. He turns around and sure enough....well I'll just hold it until the port-a- at the turn. Honchos buddy is standing over his putt on eight and let's one rip (you know you can't putt if you're tense). For they next two holes they are showered with a chorus of "your disgusting"s. And so on, and so on. So Honcho decides the next day that he doesn't care what the female members think about it "NO WOMEN ON SATURDAY MORNING". (hey its not a good reason but its a reason).

HAPPY? (of course you're not)
post #174 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by rb72 View Post

You want an answer? are you sure? okay I'll indulge you. Since both of the actual clubs that insired this argument actually have no such policy, lets talk about the Hypothecial Meadows Country Club.

Scenario 1. They were having a problem on Saturdays. It seems that they were extremely busy in the morning and golf course would almost empty out by 1 to 2 in the afternoon. The staff was being over taxed and flooded with complaints about slow play every saturday morning and sat around with nothing to do in the afternoon. Many of the complaints came from men, mostly better golfers who were complaing about the slow group of women or couples in front of them (I don't care how many female freinds you have who are speed demons, women do in fact on average play slower than men). So the club tries to instuitute this policy and what they find is that it does, in fact, more evenly distibute traffic throughout the day as well as speed up play in the morning. Those couples and ladies groups who changed their tee times to Saturday afternoon actually found that they had a more relaxing round themselves not having to worry about the foursome of (male) single digits constanly pressureing them from behind and finding it easier keeping up with the group in front. everybody is happy (well everbody but you).

Scenario 2. Hypothetical ASprings Country Club has alway been very female freindly so much so that their membership was nearly forty percent female. But at this peak female membership they start to notice a trend. male members are dropping their memberships at an alarming rate and the club is starting to sffer financially as a result. When they polled these men to find out why the answers were all the same; "Pace of play is just too slow here because there are too many women on the course". So some young assistant manager has a brilliant suggestion. " lets set aside five hours on Saturday for men only". And with the blessing of the female members they institue this policy and low and behold, male membership is on the rise again. Financial crisis averted and everyone is happy (except YOU).

Scenario 3. (you'll like this one). one day the head honcho of Hypothetical Hills Country Club wants to go out for his usual Saturday morning round of golf and he and his buddy are paired up with a couple of Ladies. On the first tee Honcho and freind fire up a couple of cubans and one of the ladies asks him to "please put that out, the smell make me nausious" MMMPH, FINE. No cigars. around the sixth hole and a few beers in Honch walks up to a tree unzips his pants and feels an unapproving glare burning a hole in the back of his head. He turns around and sure enough....well I'll just hold it until the port-a- at the turn. Honchos buddy is standing over his putt on eight and let's one rip (you know you can't putt if you're tense). For they next two holes they are showered with a chorus of "your disgusting"s. And so on, and so on. So Honcho decides the next day that he doesn't care what the female members think about it "NO WOMEN ON SATURDAY MORNING". (hey its not a good reason but its a reason).

HAPPY? (of course you're not)

 

I guess this can be considered a response..  Those darn ladies.. if they can just get the hell out of the way, golf courses would be so much better off!!  come on now..

post #175 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by rb72 View Post

You want an answer? are you sure? okay I'll indulge you. Since both of the actual clubs that insired this argument actually have no such policy, lets talk about the Hypothecial Meadows Country Club.
Scenario 1. They were having a problem on Saturdays. It seems that they were extremely busy in the morning and golf course would almost empty out by 1 to 2 in the afternoon. The staff was being over taxed and flooded with complaints about slow play every saturday morning and sat around with nothing to do in the afternoon. Many of the complaints came from men, mostly better golfers who were complaing about the slow group of women or couples in front of them (I don't care how many female freinds you have who are speed demons, women do in fact on average play slower than men). So the club tries to instuitute this policy and what they find is that it does, in fact, more evenly distibute traffic throughout the day as well as speed up play in the morning. Those couples and ladies groups who changed their tee times to Saturday afternoon actually found that they had a more relaxing round themselves not having to worry about the foursome of (male) single digits constanly pressureing them from behind and finding it easier keeping up with the group in front. everybody is happy (well everbody but you).
Scenario 2. Hypothetical ASprings Country Club has alway been very female freindly so much so that their membership was nearly forty percent female. But at this peak female membership they start to notice a trend. male members are dropping their memberships at an alarming rate and the club is starting to sffer financially as a result. When they polled these men to find out why the answers were all the same; "Pace of play is just too slow here because there are too many women on the course". So some young assistant manager has a brilliant suggestion. " lets set aside five hours on Saturday for men only". And with the blessing of the female members they institue this policy and low and behold, male membership is on the rise again. Financial crisis averted and everyone is happy (except YOU).
Scenario 3. (you'll like this one). one day the head honcho of Hypothetical Hills Country Club wants to go out for his usual Saturday morning round of golf and he and his buddy are paired up with a couple of Ladies. On the first tee Honcho and freind fire up a couple of cubans and one of the ladies asks him to "please put that out, the smell make me nausious" MMMPH, FINE. No cigars. around the sixth hole and a few beers in Honch walks up to a tree unzips his pants and feels an unapproving glare burning a hole in the back of his head. He turns around and sure enough....well I'll just hold it until the port-a- at the turn. Honchos buddy is standing over his putt on eight and let's one rip (you know you can't putt if you're tense). For they next two holes they are showered with a chorus of "your disgusting"s. And so on, and so on. So Honcho decides the next day that he doesn't care what the female members think about it "NO WOMEN ON SATURDAY MORNING". (hey its not a good reason but its a reason).

HAPPY? (of course you're not)

 

Then what, oh what, are we to do about those slow guys out there?  Some of the slowest players I've ever had to deal with were men.  I'm talking both while playing and while working in the starter shack.  That is inevitable because it's a fact that there are more male golfers than female, but that doesn't make it any less true.  There are plenty of men who are positively lethargic on the course.  Now you have to sort them out of the Saturday mix too.  Doesn't it simply make more sense to just educate players on pace of play techniques and set a good course policy, then enforce it?  Those who don't want to be constantly hassled about it will naturally gravitate toward less crowded times.  Faster players, make and female, will end up with those quick Saturday mornings, and no discrimination is necessary.

 

By the way, I'm as likely to become nauseated by cigar smoke as anyone.  I also don't understand or approve of the guy who has to whip it out to pee 15 yards from a perfectly useful restroom (I once watched a guy take a leak on the outside corner of the building the toilet was in, like he was a damn dog marking his territory).  I'm in my late 60's with the usual senior urinary issues, yet I somehow manage to hold on until I come to the proper facilities.  Once again your bias is showing a distinct lack of logical reasoning.  

post #176 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnclayton1982 View Post
 

We are not questioning your ability to discriminate.  This conversation is like this:

 

Q: Why would a club want to keep women out on Saturday mornings?

 

A: Its their club, if they want to keep women out they can.

 

Q: Well, ok, sure they can, but seems pointless alienation.  Why would they want to keep women out on Saturdays?

 

A: In my business, sometimes I discriminate against old people!!

 

Q: Uh, OK, that's strange I guess, but why do you want women off your course on Saturdays?

 

A: This has nothing to do with race.

 

Q: OK, I know that.  I want to know why you don't women on your course with you.  Its weird.

 

A: WHAT ARE YOU A GOLF CLUB MANAGER

 

--

 

We are not questioning your ability to do so legally.  We are not questioning if there are legitimate basis for other discrimination, nor are we questioning that discrimination still exists in our society, or that members of this board take part in it - rightly or wrongly - from time to time.  However, some of us don't see the point in alienating half the population of the earth for no gain, and would like to see the practice ended.

 

We are not against discrimination per se.  We are against pointless discrimination.

 

We are asking a simple question:

 

Why have the rule?

How about this - I know for some this is too difficult to comprehend;

 

Female Golfer Q:  Will I be able to reserve a tee time whenever I like

Club Manager A:  Men's league play runs from 7am - 11am on Saturdays and women's league is 7am - 11am on Tuesdays.  We also have special events throughout the season that may restrict tee times.

Female Golfer Q:  I find this policy discriminatory I think I'll join one of the other local clubs that don't have such restrictions.

 

 

Or This

 

Vegan Patron Q:  Do you have a vegetarian menu

Waiter A:  No, we're a steak house, we do have chicken and fish.

Vegan Patron Q:  But I don't eat steak, chicken or fish, this is discriminatory.

Waiter A:  I can bring you a potato or vegetable side dish but in the future might I suggest you review the menu before you making reservations at a restaurant if you have specific dietary needs.

post #177 of 209
You guys wanted reasons, I gave you a few. You want reasons that you like? I'm afraid there are none because you've got your minds made up that your right and nothing is going to change them. Do you really think that its reasonable for a club that's in financial trouble (scenario 2.) to spend MORE money to "educate their clientel" rather than fix their problem with no additional cost. I hope your not a businessman, for your sake. The point is there could be any number of reasons that such a policy would work out well for a particular club as a business entity trying to please their clientel. Just because you, in your biased state, can't think of any, doen't mean there aren't any.And you're not going to think of any because you would rather react with rightious indignation over situations you have no personal knowledge of as often as you can because that convinces you that you are the wonderful magnanimus person that you think you are. But if you want to continue to champion the cause of a handful of country club women who have to suffer the indignity of the inconvenience of a Saturday AFTERNOON tee time (or Sunday morning or Sunday afternoon, etc. ) I'm sure Muffy and Buffy appriciate it even if they don't really care. Gosh, you guys(chasm, fourput, dsc, johnclayton..etc.) must live very comfortable lives because you have no idea what real injustice is.
post #178 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

Then what, oh what, are we to do about those slow guys out there?  Some of the slowest players I've ever had to deal with were men.  I'm talking both while playing and while working in the starter shack.  That is inevitable because it's a fact that there are more male golfers than female, but that doesn't make it any less true.  There are plenty of men who are positively lethargic on the course.  Now you have to sort them out of the Saturday mix too.  Doesn't it simply make more sense to just educate players on pace of play techniques and set a good course policy, then enforce it?  Those who don't want to be constantly hassled about it will naturally gravitate toward less crowded times.  Faster players, make and female, will end up with those quick Saturday mornings, and no discrimination is necessary.

By the way, I'm as likely to become nauseated by cigar smoke as anyone.  I also don't understand or approve of the guy who has to whip it out to pee 15 yards from a perfectly useful restroom (I once watched a guy take a leak on the outside corner of the building the toilet was in, like he was a damn dog marking his territory).  I'm in my late 60's with the usual senior urinary issues, yet I somehow manage to hold on until I come to the proper facilities.  Once again your bias is showing a distinct lack of logical reasoning.  

Unreal. I think the point he is making is that sometimes guys just want to be guys, without the ladies around. I'm quite certain ladies feel the same. I fail to see the problem with that, esp if the affected ladies are ok with it.
post #179 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunther View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

Then what, oh what, are we to do about those slow guys out there?  Some of the slowest players I've ever had to deal with were men.  I'm talking both while playing and while working in the starter shack.  That is inevitable because it's a fact that there are more male golfers than female, but that doesn't make it any less true.  There are plenty of men who are positively lethargic on the course.  Now you have to sort them out of the Saturday mix too.  Doesn't it simply make more sense to just educate players on pace of play techniques and set a good course policy, then enforce it?  Those who don't want to be constantly hassled about it will naturally gravitate toward less crowded times.  Faster players, make and female, will end up with those quick Saturday mornings, and no discrimination is necessary.

By the way, I'm as likely to become nauseated by cigar smoke as anyone.  I also don't understand or approve of the guy who has to whip it out to pee 15 yards from a perfectly useful restroom (I once watched a guy take a leak on the outside corner of the building the toilet was in, like he was a damn dog marking his territory).  I'm in my late 60's with the usual senior urinary issues, yet I somehow manage to hold on until I come to the proper facilities.  Once again your bias is showing a distinct lack of logical reasoning.  

Unreal. I think the point he is making is that sometimes guys just want to be guys, without the ladies around. I'm quite certain ladies feel the same. I fail to see the problem with that, esp if the affected ladies are ok with it.

 

Gee, I've only played golf for 40 years.  I've never had any trouble being a guy whether in a male foursome with other female groups on  the course, or amazingly, even when playing in a mixed foursome.  If you have to be crude, rude and vulgar to "be a guy" then I'm not sure that I even want to play with you.  

post #180 of 209
This thread has taken a turn and has ended up in a very confusing place where the subject being debated is so vague that it will confuse just about anyone!
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