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NBA Finals - Page 7

post #109 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Righty to Lefty View Post
 

You are crazy if you truly think that MJ would have still gone undefeated in the playoffs with the teams LBJ played on in the finals. Please show me where he "quits," which is absolute B.S. by the way, as his regular and postseason numbers compare in every way to MJ's http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/j/lebron_james_vs_michael_jordan.htm. Well if Paxon and Kerr didn't bail out Jordan the Bulls might have lost in the finals also so that is just a groundless and ridiculous argument.

 

This is spoken like someone who doesn't actually watch the games, just reads stuff about the players and stats and makes the comparison on that basis alone.

 

A superstar can go 25/8/8 and still have a poor game by his standards. Stats alone don't tell the whole story, I'm judging what I'm saying based on what I've actually seen.

post #110 of 141

As a reference to back myself up, try to find the entire game 5 footage from the 2010 series against Boston.

 

Don't just look at the stat-line (though that should be evidence enough), but actually watch it and tell me what your eyes see.

 

Then go back and watch every single *pivotal* home playoff game Jordan played, and find me anything remotely similar...

 

Good luck...

 

(And that's just one example...)

post #111 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Righty to Lefty View Post
 

Matter of fact I am a fan of both MJ and Lebron as I am in awe of how both of them dominate on the court. Since we are now getting past the "11 title's bullshit" which is exactly what I was trying to erase from the conversation because it should not determine the GOAT especially in a team sport. Lebron's number's line up very nicely with MJ's in 4 fewer seasons thus far and more so in the postseason their numbers are almost the exact same and that can't be denied. If his numbers already compare very favorably to MJ's in 4 fewer seasons, who is already your GOAT, then yes he skips over a lot of people. Please show me exactly where MJ's numbers just blow LBJ's out of the water in the regular or postseason because it 's not there. LBJ rebounds and assists better already, shoots identically from the field, and will score the same amount of points as he approaches the same amount of games played. What 2 years did he lose in the finals when he was on the better team? They were absolutely not a better team than the Mavs nor the Spurs either time they lost to them. It is fair to say that the only time they were the better team was when they played OKC and even that can be debated.

 

You are crazy if you truly think that MJ would have still gone undefeated in the playoffs with the teams LBJ played on in the finals. Please show me where he "quits," which is absolute B.S. by the way, as his regular and postseason numbers compare in every way to MJ's http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/j/lebron_james_vs_michael_jordan.htm. Well if Paxon and Kerr didn't bail out Jordan the Bulls might have lost in the finals also so that is just a groundless and ridiculous argument. A great team can render a great player ineffective just like the Seahawks did to Peyton Manning in the Superbowl and make them look very ordinary if they are well coached and prepared and execute the gameplan.

MJ's #'s don't blow LBJ's out of the water they are close. MJ also has 6 rings in 6 tries while dominating in those series if you watched them. Which is why he is better (much better on the big stage).  Lebron did nothing VS a average at best Dallas team.  The Heat were SUPPOSED to win that series if you watched or listened to anything basketball experts said.  This year all season the analysts said this was Lebron's year the east was weak and they would coast to the finals and win their 3rd championship. Well after the heat lost 3 games everyone was saying how good of a team spurs were. Its funny how fast that changed.  If you do watch basketball you would see that Lebron hasn't been able to get his teams over the hump when they face any adversity.  He's not Kobe, Magic or Jordan who could take a game over in a big moment and carry his team to a win.  He is a very very good player but not even in the top 10 greatest of all time. Yet.

 

The underlined is honestly the stupidest thing Ive ever read on this website which says a lot.

post #112 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakester23 View Post
 

MJ's #'s don't blow LBJ's out of the water they are close. MJ also has 6 rings in 6 tries while dominating in those series if you watched them. Which is why he is better (much better on the big stage).  Lebron did nothing VS a average at best Dallas team.  The Heat were SUPPOSED to win that series if you watched or listened to anything basketball experts said.  This year all season the analysts said this was Lebron's year the east was weak and they would coast to the finals and win their 3rd championship. Well after the heat lost 3 games everyone was saying how good of a team spurs were. Its funny how fast that changed.  If you do watch basketball you would see that Lebron hasn't been able to get his teams over the hump when they face any adversity.  He's not Kobe, Magic or Jordan who could take a game over in a big moment and carry his team to a win.  He is a very very good player but not even in the top 10 greatest of all time. Yet.

 

The underlined is honestly the stupidest thing Ive ever read on this website which says a lot.

Were they really the better team?   They had two hall of famers on that team and a coach that is top 3 in the league all day. Not as much as you would say they where. They got outsmarted by a team that had done their homework and executed to perfection and it wasn't luck that it happened:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3jY3TcCqGU

 

Analysts are doing just that...they are analyzing and interjecting their OPINION...it is not fact. The Heat did coast to their 4th straight finals, which is a feat that even the great MJ never accomplished. A fan watches sport with emotion and even when presented with facts contrary to their belief, will just be dismissive.  I would bet my entire paycheck that you haven't once looked for evidence that LeBron is in fact better than Jordan.....why....because you don't want to find evidence that it could be happening (which it is).  

 

I will also keep it to a debate and not react to your "stupidest thing I've ever heard" statement as it is more a reflection of your belief that MJ was infallible and his other teammates never contributed to the effort. MJ is the superstar, and we all know that, but he didn't do it by himself. Lebron is one of the best TEAM players the league has ever seen.  Matter of fact did you know that Lebron has NEVER been the highest paid player in any year he has played in the league. He's not a team player though????

post #113 of 141

These people are smarter than they are given credit for:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAkVnlA9CJo

post #114 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Righty to Lefty View Post
 

Were they really the better team?   They had two hall of famers on that team and a coach that is top 3 in the league all day.

 

lol, let's count 40 year old Jason Kidd.

 

If that's the case, why couldn't LeBron win with Shaq? Kobe and Wade did...

post #115 of 141

The Heat were a better Team, but LeBron just shrinks when the moment is the biggest.

 

Here are some numbers for you:

 

LeBron James  (2010-2011 Season):  26.7 PPG,  7.0 APG, 3.6 TOPG, 7.5 RPG, FG% .510, FT% .759

LeBron James (2011 NBA Finals):     17.8 PPG,  6.8 APG, 4.0 TOPG, 7.2 RPG, FG% .478, FT% .600

 

If he even plays close to his "normal" game, they win the series. Blame it on the "team" all you want. He was worse in just about every category. And even if you're a LeBron apologist and claim superior defense, his FT percentage says it all. Dude collapses in the spotlight far more often than he shines. If not for Ray Allen (another HoFer) bailing his weak performance out last year, LeBron would be 1-4 in the Finals. 

 

Not 1....not 2....

 

Ok, maybe 2...

 

He's better than Jordan though...lol

post #116 of 141

Jordan never shrank away ...

post #117 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post
 

 

lol, let's count 40 year old Jason Kidd.

 

If that's the case, why couldn't LeBron win with Shaq? Kobe and Wade did...

Yeah so Tim Duncan doesn't count either then cause there is no way that an older player in the NBA can play well...That is basically what you just said.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post
 

The Heat were a better Team, but LeBron just shrinks when the moment is the biggest.

 

Here are some numbers for you:

 

LeBron James  (2010-2011 Season):  26.7 PPG,  7.0 APG, 3.6 TOPG, 7.5 RPG, FG% .510, FT% .759

LeBron James (2011 NBA Finals):     17.8 PPG,  6.8 APG, 4.0 TOPG, 7.2 RPG, FG% .478, FT% .600

 

If he even plays close to his "normal" game, they win the series. Blame it on the "team" all you want. He was worse in just about every category. And even if you're a LeBron apologist and claim superior defense, his FT percentage says it all. Dude collapses in the spotlight far more often than he shines. If not for Ray Allen (another HoFer) bailing his weak performance out last year, LeBron would be 1-4 in the Finals. 

 

Not 1....not 2....

 

Ok, maybe 2...

 

He's better than Jordan though...lol

Once again people who know way more about the game than any of us say they weren't and then gave you an actual explanation as to why but I'm the one who is "trying to be right as Jakester noted in his comment on your post" when I am the one looking at it objectively because I am actually a fan of both. The woulda shoulda coulda game is silly also because if Paxon, Hodges, or Kerr didn't make shots the the Bulls would have lost because the last time I checked other people played for the Bulls other than Jordan. If Rodman didn't rebound or Phil didn't coach then they would have lost. Yeah....the old free throw percentage definitely tells the whole story...yup.... case closed then.  Free throw percentage????? Not his 4th quarter with less than 2 mins free throw percentage.....his overall free throw percentage tells you all you need to know????

post #118 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by isukgolf View Post
 

Jordan never shrank away ...


Sure he did...he just made a lot of free throws to cover up bad shooting nights. He wasn't lights out every night:

 

No. 10  Jordan worst - Game 3 1998 Finals - Jordan only had 24 points on a night where he took only 14 shots of which he made 7. He made 10 of 11 from the line against Utah and the Bulls won anyway. Jordan added only 3 rebs, 2 assists, 1 stl and 1 blk.

No. 9 Jordan worst - In the 1996 closer against Seattle (game 6), Jordan won on Father’s Day, and capped off a comeback like no other finishing off a 72-10 season. But in that last game he didn’t put up impressive individual stats…well he did, but just not compared to himself. He was rather Kobeish in this one. Jordan had a career Finals low 22 points on 5 of 19 shooting. He did make 11 of 12 from the line and added seven boards but he did have five turnovers. His stats weren’t his best, but it was his most satisfying title win that night!

No. 8 Jordan worst – The Seattle series in 1996 was the only time Jordan had great teammates. In game one he had a sub-par Jordan game but the team still won. MJ scored 28 points on 9 of 18 shooting. He also made 9 of 10 from the line and added 7 rebs 2 asts 2 stls and 1 blk. He did have 4 fouls, but this is Jordan’s eighth WORST finals game, that’s how good he was.

No. 7 Jordan worst – When the Bulls lost to Portland in game four of the 1992 Finals he was kind of off, but his teammates were to blame on a higher level. Jordan contributed with 32 points, but only made 11 of 26 shots from the field. He was a perfect 8 for 8 from the line but only hit 2 of 6 three’s. He did have six assists and five boards in the game but it wasn’t enough – after all he didn’t have Shaq or Gasol to make him look better.

No. 6 Jordan worst – At age 35 Jordan was the oldest NBA MVP and scoring champion ever. The first finals game in 1998 kind of showed his age and the Jazz won. Jordan did have an outstanding 33 points but he shot badly (for MJ not for Kobe) with a 13/29 shooting night and 6/8 free throws. He had two blocks but no steals and only two assists with three boards in the loss.

No. 5 Jordan worst – Game 3 1992 Finals vs. Portland wasn’t Jordan’s greatest personal performance ever, but he still willed his team to the win in the end. His point total was 26, on 11 of 22 shooting. He missed all four three pointers he took but he did have 3 steals 4 assists and 5 rebounds. In the press conference, as if apologizing for only scoring 26 in the win Jordan said, “It was a win, and that’s all that matters.”

No. 4 Jordan worst – Any loss in the Finals for Jordan was a bad game to him. In game five in 1998 vs. Utah, Jordan ‘only’ had 28 points in 45 minutes of play and the team lost. He shot an abysmal 9 of 26 from the field and the Bulls just looked lost. Jordan came up with 10 of 11 free throws but added only 4 rebounds, 4 assists and 3 steals.

No. 3 Jordan worst – Jordan did shoot 50% on the night and he held up his end of the bargain but the Bulls did lose against Seattle in game 5 of 1996. He had a personal low one assist in the game but he did score 26 points. Was he being selfish or did his teammates suck that bad? I’d go with his teammates sucked that bad, not like Shaq or Gasol. This was Longley and Wennington. After all Jordan did go 11/22 on the night in his third worst ever Finals game.

No. 2 Jordan worst – In game four vs Utah in 1997, the 34 year-old Jordan, tied a personal career finals low with only 22 points. He was 11/27 from the field, and the Bulls lost their second in a row against the Jazz.

No. 1 Jordan worst – After winning the first three in a row of the 1996 Finals the Bulls came out sluggish in game four leading to the first of two straight losses. Jordan looked a grizzled 33 years old in his worst ever finals game. He only shot 6 of 19 from the field and he made 11 of 13 free throws but he did miss both his three attempts. He only had three rebounds and two assists with one steal. His four turnovers and three fouls with 23 points in a loss, made this the worst Jordan ever played in the finals, which ain’t really that bad compared to… you know who! Ha ha ha

post #119 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Righty to Lefty View Post
 


Sure he did...he just made a lot of free throws to cover up bad shooting nights. He wasn't lights out every night:

 

 

You're pointing out individual games...everyone has bad games. I pointed out an entire finals series. And you wanna talk about 4th quarters? Look at LeBron's 4th quarter stats in the Heat/Mavs finals...abysmal. 

 

"Yeah so Tim Duncan doesn't count either then cause there is no way that an older player in the NBA can play well...That is basically what you just said."

 

Nope, not basically what I said. But you're the same kind of person who says that LeBron didn't win in Cleveland because he didn't have anyone...even though they had the best record and he was playing with Shaq...a first ballot no doubter hall of famer.

 

Bottom line is, all your posts indicate that you haven't actually watched Jordan and LeBron, and are just reading articles and stats to make your comparison.

 

The people who watched both, know there's no comparison.

post #120 of 141

We will see how your thoughts change when he starts bringing championships to Cleveland.....I will be sure to revive this thread in a couple years.

 

http://www.si.com/nba/2014/07/11/lebron-james-cleveland-cavaliers

post #121 of 141
You won't until he wins a title.
post #122 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Righty to Lefty View Post
 

We will see how your thoughts change when he starts bringing championships to Cleveland.....I will be sure to revive this thread in a couple years.

 

http://www.si.com/nba/2014/07/11/lebron-james-cleveland-cavaliers

 

My thoughts will be identical. I'm thrilled he's back, because I'm a huge Cavs fan, and a huge fan of the city of Cleveland, and this is great news for both.

 

However, it doesn't change the fact that I still don't like LeBron James as a person, and I believe Jordan is the GOAT, without question.

post #123 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post
 

 

However, it doesn't change the fact that I still don't like LeBron James as a person

Can I ask why?

 

I've always thought him to be the poster boy for the NBA.  No drug issues, law issues, teammate issues, etc.  One silly mistake 4 years ago ("The Decision") ... that seems easily forgiven to me, but regardless.  What else?

post #124 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

Can I ask why?

 

I've always thought him to be the poster boy for the NBA.  No drug issues, law issues, teammate issues, etc.  One silly mistake 4 years ago ("The Decision") ... that seems easily forgiven to me, but regardless.  What else?

I have to agree with this. I'm also a Clevelander and die-hard Cavs/Cleveland sports fan and I actually do like LeBron. I have to admit I was really pissed off when he left. Not to the point of the idiots burning jerseys and making threats, driving past his house with threats, etc. obviously because I have a brain. But I really felt let down because I do love my sports and anyone with common sense could see the upcoming atrocity that would be basketball in this town without him.

You have to give this guy credit. From a very, very young age he was labeled "The Chosen One", became the Nike poster boy, has earned over $450M since his career began at 18, has started numerous charities and continuously helps children with hands-on time and hard work, etc. This guy has never once been in trouble (yet) for anything off of the court that could really be frowned on. I cannot say that I would have kept a level head myself, though I'd like to think I would. The percentage of most 

In my opinion, nobody knows him well enough to justifiably say they dislike him as a person, or his character. Jordan would be a whole different ball game, but that's besides the point.

Anyway, I am one pumped up Cavs fan today and I am now praying that I see a Kevin Love trade pop up on my phone. Hell, bring on Birdman, Mike Miller and Ray Allen too. Do whatever it takes to bring that damn championship to Cleveland.

I'm partying tonight for sure! :beer:

post #125 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

Can I ask why?

 

I've always thought him to be the poster boy for the NBA.  No drug issues, law issues, teammate issues, etc.  One silly mistake 4 years ago ("The Decision") ... that seems easily forgiven to me, but regardless.  What else?

 

Of course you can ask why...

 

At the end of the day, he's a narcissist who truly believes he's above everyone else. He's arrogant, when he was here...he was rude to fans and anyone who was "below him". He also quit on his team when he knew he was leaving...what kind of person does that?

 

He's back, and I love the Cavs, so I'm rooting for him hardcore...but I still don't like the guy.

 

EDIT: For the record, I feel similar (but not as strongly) about Jordan as a person lol

post #126 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

Can I ask why?

 

I've always thought him to be the poster boy for the NBA.  No drug issues, law issues, teammate issues, etc.  One silly mistake 4 years ago ("The Decision") ... that seems easily forgiven to me, but regardless.  What else?


My thoughts exactly....but he's thrilled to have him??....even though he really doesn't like him personally???  Even though the guy hasn't had not a single run in since he's been in the league and he wants to come back to his home state so that he can mentor the thousands of kids that look up to him and be a leader on and off the court.  

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