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Safety Out of Bounds - Page 2

post #19 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunther View Post


Very surprised the pro shop didn't know how to play it. My inclination would be to play those stakes as red, 2 club lengths from where it crossed with no penalty. If they hold a tournament, they'd have to clarify for the field, no?


Yeah if I wouldn't play for anything more than a just for fun round unless they made sure everybody was on the same page.

post #20 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunther View Post

This is news to me; I've always been under the impression local rules supersede the rules of golf. I know where that could go, obviously, but this was always my assumption.

 

Local Rules themselves are governed by the Rules of Golf. They can't "supersede" them.

 

 

Quote:

Definitions

All defined terms are in italics and are listed alphabetically in the Definitions section.

As provided in Rule 33-8a, the Committee may make and publish Local Rules for local abnormal conditions if they are consistent with the policy established in this Appendix. In addition, detailed information regarding acceptable and prohibited Local Rules is provided in “Decisions on the Rules of Golf” under Rule 33-8 and in “How to Conduct a Competition.”

If local abnormal conditions interfere with the proper playing of the game and the Committee considers it necessary to modify a Rule of Golf, authorization from the USGA must be obtained.

 

post #21 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

Local Rules themselves are governed by the Rules of Golf. They can't "supersede" them.

 



 



Well, now that I know that, damn, guess I'd have to play it as a regular OB. There is wisdom in the adage, ignorance is bliss.
post #22 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 like the OP's where they have waived the penalty entirely.

.

 The won't like that because it is 'waiving a rule of golf'.

 

 

From the USGA Publication "How to Run A Competition"

 

It is a common misconception that it is not proper to define as out of bounds an area
within a course. The USGA often marks as out of bounds areas such as parking lots,
clubhouses, maintenance areas, tennis courts, practice areas, etc.


Decision 33-2a/12 states that it is permissible to establish out of bounds between two holes if this is necessary for safety reasons or to prevent players from “cutting a dogleg.” 

If this is done, the status of the stakes when the player is playing a different hole should be stated on a Notice to Players (or Local Rules). Typically they are played as immovable obstructions when playing other holes.

post #23 of 37
there is a similar situation at Bergen Point in Babylon, NY. The right side of 4 and the right side of 13 are marked as internal OB. But it isn't marked as "Safety OB". It 's marked as OB- This DOES have an effect on safety, because it hopefully prevents people from trying to cut the corner of 4 into the people standing on 5 (NO O.B. for 5 coming the other way). Same on 13- the dogleg is right at the green of #7. Unfortunately, it is routinely ignored and people try to fly it over the corner while people are standing on the green. If they don't make it they play from around the green, ignoring the fact they are out of bounds. Try and tell them and they get all touchy about it.

But I can see their concern for "safety" in these situations. But why not make it PUNISHABLE BY DEATH, and clearly state that on the card- to play from where they don't want you to? They could spend some money and maybe put up a net for safety as well.
post #24 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayG View Post

there is a similar situation at Bergen Point in Babylon, NY. The right side of 4 and the right side of 13 are marked as internal OB. But it isn't marked as "Safety OB". It 's marked as OB- This DOES have an effect on safety, because it hopefully prevents people from trying to cut the corner of 4 into the people standing on 5 (NO O.B. for 5 coming the other way). Same on 13- the dogleg is right at the green of #7. Unfortunately, it is routinely ignored and people try to fly it over the corner while people are standing on the green. If they don't make it they play from around the green, ignoring the fact they are out of bounds. Try and tell them and they get all touchy about it.

But I can see their concern for "safety" in these situations. But why not make it PUNISHABLE BY DEATH, and clearly state that on the card- to play from where they don't want you to? They could spend some money and maybe put up a net for safety as well.

How high are the trees at the corner? How tall would security fence have to be?

post #25 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayG View Post

there is a similar situation at Bergen Point in Babylon, NY. The right side of 4 and the right side of 13 are marked as internal OB. But it isn't marked as "Safety OB". It 's marked as OB- ....

 

There is no such thing in the Rules as Safety Out of Bounds, just Out of Bounds.  As has been pointed out, a local rule defining  "Safety OB"  with no penalty is unauthorised and would not be authorised by the USGA/R&A.

 

Safety was certainly the consideration when at my club we introduced internal OB between two holes because longer hitters were deliberately playing (blind) down the wrong fairway to get a better line into a new  green.  It was not a popular move because it is easy to go out of bounds unintentionally and the honest mishitters are  harshly penalised.  The OB has now been removed with a club instruction that players must not deliberately play down the wrong hole.  That has no force in terms of the rules and a player cannot be penalised in terms of his score and so  it depends on club discipline to be effective.  Our top players have indicated they will police it themselves and if that works, it is an ideal solution until the  trees already there between the two holes have matured. 

 

With a problem like that, it takes a few minutes to bang in a line of white stakes whereas it takes years to grow trees.

post #26 of 37

This is how my home course salved the problem.  The first photo shows the 9th hole in lavender, the designed play of the 18th hole in blue, the usual attempted path in yellow, and the discouraged path in red.  The red path was out of bounds for a few years after the original trees died and had to be replaced.  

 

 

 

The second photo with the 3D view shows how the trees block play from the 18th tee.  While they aren't huge trees, because of their positioning you have to get the ball high very quickly to avoid them.  If you do manage that, the second shot is screened from the 18th green by more trees.  Although it isn't as apparent in the overhead, the shot is usually blind, with no view of the flagstick, with water lurking short, and  with the ground sloping away from the green to the water for anything long.  Long is almost guaranteed to be wet.

 

post #27 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkolo View Post
 

I've played one of the courses here on Long Island, Crab Meadow, a number of times, and I was looking over the score card the other day. One of the local rules declares that there is a "safety out of bounds" between holes 7 and 8 marked by black and white stakes, for which there's no penalty. I've been thinking about it, but I can't seem to figure out what they're going for. I did some poking around online and, best I can tell, this seems to be an internal out of bounds rule, but I'm confused because it seems that those tend to be for one hole and not another, and they also carry with them some sort of penalty. I asked at the pro shop and no one seemed to have any idea. So what does "no penalty" mean in this case if you hit the ball out of bounds? Do you get to hit again without penalty? Do you pick the ball up and bring it in bounds without penalty? Can you play out of there if it's safe (say, no one else on 7 or 8)? Is any of this actually legal under the rules or did they sort of Frankenstein together a local rule? In all of the times that I've played there, it's only come up once and the older gentleman that I played with just brought the ball back into our hole (the rough between the two holes is uncharacteristically sparse for this course; it's basically all fairway)

 

I'm including a picture of the score card and a screen grab of a satellite view of the relevant area from Google Maps. For further reference, the way the two holes are set up is that the tee box on 7 is elevated about 20 feet above the rest of 7 and 8. 7 doglegs around the start of 8, and I would guess slices for right handed players from both 7 and 8 would land in the adjacent fairways pretty commonly. The white / black OB stakes are confined to the tree line between the fairways. 

 

Anyway, I'm curious to hear your thoughts.

 

 

 

UPDATE

 

So I've managed to find someone at the course who knew what this issue was. I'm pretty unsatisfied by the answer. The rundown is basically as follows: I asked what the deal was regarding the safety out of bounds markers between the two holes.

 

[For further clarification, if you'll reference the pictures included above (if the quoting works right), these black and white markers exist in the area where the cart paths fork above the little pond and run as far up as the first clump of two or three trees. I didn't notice them extending along the entire fairway; I only saw them in the dogleg (which, I think, I kind of confusing for players, to have a short strip like this be out of bounds, but that's the least of the issues I have with this). If you drew a horizontal line extending the street labeled "Oceanside" through the fairways, the stakes have stopped below that level.]

 

So I asked the gentleman who works at the course for clarification regarding this so-called safety out of bounds. He said it was a local rule that they put in. I asked how it was allowed by the Rules of Golf, and he seemed incredulous (I was making a point of being polite, but I could sort of see that this is where it was going downhill fast). Basically he said that golf courses could make up whatever local rules they wanted, and besides, safety out of bound was in the rules. I didn't have a rule book on hand, but I made the point (and I would welcome others who are smarter than I am to please correct me if I'm wrong) that out of bounds meant that there was a penalty of stroke and distance. Internal OB, which is what I think it's called in the rules, allows for a course to call an area OB as needed, and gives the course flexibility, where they can say it's OB from one side and not the other, which is why some courses use black and white stakes with flat sides on them to indicate which hole the OB applies to (this course uses round poles; they're about 5 feet high and striped with alternating black and white bars). He agreed as if I were making his point. But I reiterated that in any event there has to be a penalty of stroke and distance and that if someone is trying to play by the rules for handicap or in general, he has to take the penalty. I said it can't be waived by the course in a local rule. He said (and this is where I gave up) that you can play with that penalty, but the course is giving you the option to drop for free within two club lengths (of the boundary, I guess; rules were being made up from whole cloth at this point). He reiterated that golf courses can absolutely make up whatever local rules they want. I tried to make the point that the USGA offers guidance and samples for allowable local rules, but that wasn't being taken in stride. 

 

One side thing that was mentioned, is that apparently when there was a tournament played here in the past, the committee did some things differently with that area. I don't recall what exactly, but it boiled down to "they ignored this nonsense."

 

So that's a bit of an epilogue to this story. I welcome thoughts from others on here about whether I was correct in what I said and how I approached it. I tried to keep some of the context details vague because on the remote chance anyone who knows the course or the personnel reads this, I would hate to make someone look bad or make it seem like I'm attacking them online. The guy is otherwise a tremendously pleasant and nice gentleman. 

post #28 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkolo View Post

... but the course is giving you the option to drop for free within two club lengths (of the boundary,...

 

If that is what they wanted, they definitely didn't write out the rule very well.  Instead of calling it"out of bounds", they should have said something to the effect that if a ball lands in the staked area, you may take a free drop within the two club lengths mentioned.  It's just a very poorly worded rule.

post #29 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by davedove View Post
 

 

If that is what they wanted, they definitely didn't write out the rule very well.  Instead of calling it"out of bounds", they should have said something to the effect that if a ball lands in the staked area, you may take a free drop within the two club lengths mentioned.  It's just a very poorly worded rule.

Absolutely. And the thing is, it's hard to call it a staked "area" because it's just a single line that terminates at some point on either end, so how to draw that angle once you're closer to the dogleg gets increasingly difficult. I mean, you could theoretically shank a ball from the 7th fairway on your approach shot and come to rest near those poles in the fork area between the cart paths, and it'd be very ambiguous as to whether you're OB or not. 

post #30 of 37

I've seen this before. Can't say I agreed with it but in this case it was bad design on an older course badly in need of updates on reachable par 4 with a blind tee shot. They didn't call it safety OB but it did have a drop area. I assume because you really had no idea where your ball was or wasn't until you got to the green if you didn't lay up. There was a sign on the tee asking people not to cut the corner. Of course every guy cut the corner and went for it, I was there for a scramble, hole was something like 277 yard par 4 that was dang near 90 degrees so cutting the corner made it even shorter. What you didn't know and the course didn't mention on the sign is the tee box for the next hole is over the mound everyone cut the corner over between the green and tee of the short par 4, but you couldn't see it. The OB problem was the green was in a corner of the course that bordered apartment property, just 10 paces or so from two sides of the green to white stakes against a wrought iron fence. My guess is the course was there first and the apartments came much later.

post #31 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave2512 View Post
 

I've seen this before. Can't say I agreed with it but in this case it was bad design on an older course badly in need of updates on reachable par 4 with a blind tee shot. They didn't call it safety OB but it did have a drop area. I assume because you really had no idea where your ball was or wasn't until you got to the green if you didn't lay up. There was a sign on the tee asking people not to cut the corner. Of course every guy cut the corner and went for it, I was there for a scramble, hole was something like 277 yard par 4 that was dang near 90 degrees so cutting the corner made it even shorter. What you didn't know and the course didn't mention on the sign is the tee box for the next hole is over the mound everyone cut the corner over between the green and tee of the short par 4, but you couldn't see it. The OB problem was the green was in a corner of the course that bordered apartment property, just 10 paces or so from two sides of the green to white stakes against a wrought iron fence. My guess is the course was there first and the apartments came much later.

Given the safety issue and the pattern of people ignoring signs and trying to cut the corner anyway I would think the course would have a huge liability issue if someone gets hurt by someone trying to cut the corner.  They were aware of a dangerous situation, they knew their "solution" didn't work but they just let it go.  Sounds like classic negligence to me.  

post #32 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by turtleback View Post
 

Given the safety issue and the pattern of people ignoring signs and trying to cut the corner anyway I would think the course would have a huge liability issue if someone gets hurt by someone trying to cut the corner.  They were aware of a dangerous situation, they knew their "solution" didn't work but they just let it go.  Sounds like classic negligence to me.  


It was pretty strange. Crazy thing was that day they had a table set up on the 9th tee with ladies sitting there selling tickets for the contest on that hole. Can't remember exactly what it was but there a backup while I was there and I heard balls whizzing by and cracking into the trees near the green. There was two scramble tournaments on the course that day so I am sure when the regulars play not as bad but still. Maybe you've been there, Applewood in Golden. I was unsure what hole so I looked on their site, it's 8 and I was a little of on the yardage it's 330. The card says in course OB on holes 1 8 9 10 13. Worst course I have ever played.

post #33 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave2512 View Post
 


It was pretty strange. Crazy thing was that day they had a table set up on the 9th tee with ladies sitting there selling tickets for the contest on that hole. Can't remember exactly what it was but there a backup while I was there and I heard balls whizzing by and cracking into the trees near the green. There was two scramble tournaments on the course that day so I am sure when the regulars play not as bad but still. Maybe you've been there, Applewood in Golden. I was unsure what hole so I looked on their site, it's 8 and I was a little of on the yardage it's 330. The card says in course OB on holes 1 8 9 10 13. Worst course I have ever played.

I haven't played there.  I just moved to CO from SoCal and can't play yet due to a sprained and chipped ankle.

 

Would it be difficult for them to just put up a small fence or a tree to block that path?

post #34 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by turtleback View Post
 

I haven't played there.  I just moved to CO from SoCal and can't play yet due to a sprained and chipped ankle.

 

Would it be difficult for them to just put up a small fence or a tree to block that path?


A fence wouldn't do anything because you wouldn't see it from the tee unless it was very high. The hole is dogleg left slightly uphill with a huge cottonwood in the corner that should discourage it but it didn't. Behind the tree is a hill nearly as high as the tree of unmaintained native scrub. It may even be higher than the tree. The green is behind that right and the next tee on top of the hill left of the green. What they need to do is knock down the hill a bit so people can see the green and put a net up protecting the 9th tee. Even if you could see the green going for it doesn't make sense because the property ends too close the green. Reality is it's a bad hole, a two iron shots very short par 4 that probably doesn't give up many birdies but causes a lot of lost balls. It's a terrible course, everything about it was bad. The tee boxes were bare on some holes. Huge pile of course trash right in the middle of the course, seriously they dump branches and everything else you can imagine in plain sight.

post #35 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave2512 View Post
 


A fence wouldn't do anything because you wouldn't see it from the tee unless it was very high. 

 

I was thinking more of a fence that ran along one side of the teebox.  You said it was a right-angle dogleg - say it is dogleg left.  If you ran a fence along the left side of the tee box wouldn't that block players from trying to cut the dogleg?  When you are that close to the tee box it shouldn't take much to foreclose a particular line of play.

post #36 of 37
I know that course pretty well, and I know exactly where you're talking about. Put it this way - I've probably played about 10-15 rounds there and never seen anybody actually try to cut that corner. On the 9th tee, there seems to be enough protection from the trees that I've never felt unsafe - nor would I ever really be worried about people trying to drive the green.

I also think it's partially there to prevent people from looking for their balls if they hit it in that area. Pace of play can be slow at this course. I don't think that there is normally a drop area either. At least I've never noticed it.

You are right about how bad that course is. It's so damn short, and I don't think they can maintain very well. They aren't allowed to use any chemicals or certain types of fertilizer there because the course is on top of the water supply for Coors. I think that creates a lot of issues for them. But that doesn't excuse things like tee boxes having significant slopes, and dead tee boxes. The thing that course has going for them is that it's really cheap for twilight rates and the staff - besides a grumpy marshall or two - is really good.
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