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You Should Watch Your Partner's Putts Roll to a Stop - Page 4

post #55 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post


It's a fact. The results of computer modeling that's dead on accurate.

This particular putt is never within 80 degrees of the fall line.

I don't know what you're missing. These numbers demonstrate fairly clearly that the last part of a putt isn't more important than other parts of the putt. Perhaps you are not considering that when a putt has already broken 26 inches the angle it is taking has changed and perceived break is larger than actual break.

It would take far too long for me to explain all of the physics and math in this. Trust it, or don't. People are too wishy-washy about putting and treat it too much as an art form when green reading can really be resolved by learning and applying a few very simple skills.

I am not saying you are wrong about this putt but I don't see many facts about this particular putt other than it is 20 feet, breaks 32" with 6" of break coming in the last 5'.  I fail to see how you calculated 32" of total break or 6" coming in the last 5'.  Is there a place where I can get more information about this putt?  i.e. what is the slope of the green and at what angle is the ball and hole relative to the fall line..

 

By the way, when you say "the angle it is taking has changed" is what I meant when I said  "...the first part of the putt has broken towards the fall line and the last part is more down the fall line than the first part."

 

I'll also add, just because a particular putt breaks less at the end doesn't mean that watching the last part of a putt fails to convey valuable information.  If a putt stays perfectly straight the last 5', that would help me to determine where the fail line is or show that the green is very flat around the hole (assuming that the player striking the putt did not put a lot of side spin on his ball that was still present the last 5 feet).

 

Do you know if anyplace in Summit County, CO that offers Aimpoint?

post #56 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 

Do you know if anyplace in Summit County, CO that offers Aimpoint?

According to their website (which I was able to find using this newfangled thingie they have on the internet called "google" :-P), there is one in Englewood and one in Denver.

post #57 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunther View Post


I gotcha and would agree. I understood the OP's original point but when he offered that challenge, I interpreted it to mean on the same line, same distance, in essence, the same putt. Couldn't imagine anyone not opting for that in favor of reading the green. But sure, coming from 90° different direction, I wouldn't rely on it very much at all.

 

I don't know. Ever see two guys hit the ball OB left, and then the third guy hits a huge push or slice right? Just saying, I rather not watch a putt not go in. Also, if the guy misses high, lets say a good 6 inch miss-read. I don't think that would help many people. Most people would remember the path the ball took. So, yea, I rather just read my own putts. 

 

I wouldn't buy this analogy at all.  Full shots would almost never give person a read on what to do, and I don't care where someone else starts a putt.  When I pick a point to aim at, I aim at that and I start my putt on that line.  My subconscience isn't going to override my forebrain and hit the ball somewhere else.  If I see his putt hit well but misread by that much, and I'm on nearly the same line, then his putt might be of great assistance to me in making my own read.  That doesn't mean that I'm just going to take what he did and aim 6 inches closer - I'm still going to make my own read and set my own spot as a target.

post #58 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

I wouldn't buy this analogy at all.  Full shots would almost never give person a read on what to do, and I don't care where someone else starts a putt.  When I pick a point to aim at, I aim at that and I start my putt on that line.  My subconscience isn't going to override my forebrain and hit the ball somewhere else.  If I see his putt hit well but misread by that much, and I'm on nearly the same line, then his putt might be of great assistance to me in making my own read.  That doesn't mean that I'm just going to take what he did and aim 6 inches closer - I'm still going to make my own read and set my own spot as a target.

 

Well a lot of golfers tend to aim wrong and then pull putts or push putts back online. So, I wouldn't discount your subconscious in golf :whistle:

 

I am just saying if someone is putting down your line and you try to get a read on it, and lets say his putt is 5 feet longer, and breaks more because of it, they might say, "Oh I have to aim that far out", when it actually breaks less. I rather not pay attention to how a putt breaks, maybe just to say, well it does break to the left. That is about it. 

post #59 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

I wouldn't buy this analogy at all.  Full shots would almost never give person a read on what to do, and I don't care where someone else starts a putt.  When I pick a point to aim at, I aim at that and I start my putt on that line.  My subconscience isn't going to override my forebrain and hit the ball somewhere else.  If I see his putt hit well but misread by that much, and I'm on nearly the same line, then his putt might be of great assistance to me in making my own read.  That doesn't mean that I'm just going to take what he did and aim 6 inches closer - I'm still going to make my own read and set my own spot as a target.

 

Well a lot of golfers tend to aim wrong and then pull putts or push putts back online. So, I wouldn't discount your subconscious in golf :whistle:

 

I am just saying if someone is putting down your line and you try to get a read on it, and lets say his putt is 5 feet longer, and breaks more because of it, they might say, "Oh I have to aim that far out", when it actually breaks less. I rather not pay attention to how a putt breaks, maybe just to say, well it does break to the left. That is about it. 

 

Maybe I've just been playing too long to allow myself to be influenced like that.  If there is one part of my game that I'm pretty good at at, it's starting my putt on my intended line.  That doesn't always mean that it's the right line, or I may strike it too hard or not hard enough, but I am good at hitting my mark.

post #60 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

According to their website (which I was able to find using this newfangled thingie they have on the internet called "google" :-P), there is one in Englewood and one in Denver.

I visited their website previously and couldn't find anything near me then either but on occasion I have seen websites that are slow updating, hence the question.  

 

What type of greens does it make the most sense to take Aimpoint?  The Englewood course is about 1.5 hours from me, but when I played there last year, I felt the practice green had very obvious slopes and was much easier to read than any of the greens I play on regularly.  The only thing "tricky" about it was that it wasn't very smooth, IIRC. 

post #61 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 

I am not saying you are wrong about this putt but I don't see many facts about this particular putt other than it is 20 feet, breaks 32" with 6" of break coming in the last 5'.

 

Those are the facts. I also said it's uniform in slope direction and amount.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 

I fail to see how you calculated 32" of total break or 6" coming in the last 5'.  Is there a place where I can get more information about this putt?

 

It's proprietary information from AimPoint, so no, you can't get the calculations from me. Though it should line up pretty well with the app (not that I recommend most people buy the app, especially with Express out there and greatly preferred by many).

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 

By the way, when you say "the angle it is taking has changed" is what I meant when I said  "...the first part of the putt has broken towards the fall line and the last part is more down the fall line than the first part."

 

Yes, but it can still be quite a ways away from the fall line.

 

And that's not even including putts that have multiple breaks. Also, the fall line changes constantly on greens - rarely are there just flat, uniformly tilted (planar) greens.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 

I'll also add, just because a particular putt breaks less at the end doesn't mean that watching the last part of a putt fails to convey valuable information.

 

I never said otherwise. I've simply pointed out that the importance is often overstated.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 

What type of greens does it make the most sense to take Aimpoint?

 

It doesn't matter.

post #62 of 64

I think the OP is onto something that all of us know, or should know:  don't ignore other players' balls rolling on your green, because you can get a lot of information.

 

Let's start with two basic points.  

  • First, you should always read your own putt.  Whether you use AimPoint or plumb bobbing or whatever technique you use, you have to make your own read.  You can't rely solely on another player's roll, because you don't know whether they hit it solid, wiped across it, or whatever.  (I actually have a buddy who is a pretty good player who intentionally slices every putt inside 10 feet to confuse other players who might be watching his putt.)  
  • Second, even if you have taken AimPoint, and correctly apply the principles, you're going to have uncertainties, or even miss things, from time to time.  Watching someone else's roll might help  confirm your information, or if you see a ball do something that you didn't expect based on your own read, it might prompt you to take another look.

 

Examples of how I watch other folks rolls to help me check my read:

  • I had a 60-foot pitch shot over a mound yesterday, and my buddy was chipping from the opposite side of the hole.  He landed his about 15 feet short of where I thought he needed to, and I watched his ball roll 2 feet by the hole.  As a result, I looked at the chip again and decided it was going to be a lot slower than I had initially judged--a sort of double slope where I was coming off of a mound, but the shot was actually slightly uphill for most of the roll.  I pitched my ball about 8 feet further than my initial target and had a tap-in par.
  • Another hole watching a buddy chip from the opposite side of the hole, and his ball swung very hard down what looked and felt like a minor slope.  This caused me to play more break on my long birdie putt, which finished less than a foot from the hole.
  • Even if someone is putting at a perpendicular line from yours you can learn from watching their ball roll to or by the hole.  I always watch the speed of the ball as it approaches.  Does it stop quicker than I expected?  Does it roll farther?  That can help me evaluate the degree of the break.  You also have to check for grain, because a putt rolling by the hole at a right angle from your line might be affected by grain that will have little impact on your own putt, but it still can help.

 

The key is you have to watch the whole shot, you have to pay attention to how the ball is rolling (speed, bouncing, etc.), and you have to already have an idea about the read.  I always trust my own eyes more, but I've saved a lot of shots by watching other balls do things that were at odds with my own read, and then re-checking my information.  I've been playing golf for 27 years, and I'm a pretty good putter (particularly in judging speed), so that really helps.  

post #63 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by k-troop View Post
 
  • First, you should always read your own putt.  Whether you use AimPoint or plumb bobbing or whatever technique you use, you have to make your own read.  You can't rely solely on another player's roll, because you don't know whether they hit it solid, wiped across it, or whatever.  (I actually have a buddy who is a pretty good player who intentionally slices every putt inside 10 feet to confuse other players who might be watching his putt.)  

 

Your friend is an idiot. :-) He's probably easily costing himself more strokes than he's costing others.

 

I can only really speak for myself, but I think most people were simply saying that you can't put a LOT of importance on the last bit of a putt - the rest of the putt matters quite a bit as well. I don't think anyone was saying "ignore everyone else's shots." That wouldn't make sense at all.

post #64 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

Your friend is an idiot. a1_smile.gif  He's probably easily costing himself more strokes than he's costing others.

I don't disagree, and I've told him as much. He says it also helps him control pace on the typically quick and sloping greens at his home course, but I don't buy that either. It's remarkable but he makes a ton of putts from 10' and in. Probably should be noted that he plays 95% of his rounds (which is 100 or more per year) at the same course and he could probably hit nearly every putt on that course with his eyes closed.
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