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My home course slope and rating

post #1 of 44
Thread Starter 

I am wondering if any of you guys can help me determine how tough the course I play is. 

 

From the white tees, which is the middle tees, the rating is 71 and the slope is 117. 

 

From the back tees the rating is 72.9 and the rating is 121. 

 

What do those numbers mean?

post #2 of 44
post #3 of 44

Interesting.  The thing I've wondered is why is par for a course usually not the same as the course rating?  I can't even remember how many courses I saw in Denver that had a course rating of 68 or 69 but par was 71 or 72.  It seems like these numbers should be the same.

post #4 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strandly View Post
 

Interesting.  The thing I've wondered is why is par for a course usually not the same as the course rating?  I can't even remember how many courses I saw in Denver that had a course rating of 68 or 69 but par was 71 or 72.  It seems like these numbers should be the same.

 

Why?

 

A course filled with 340-yard par fours is likely to have a low course rating, but you can't call a few of them par threes to even it up.

post #5 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strandly View Post

Interesting.  The thing I've wondered is why is par for a course usually not the same as the course rating?  I can't even remember how many courses I saw in Denver that had a course rating of 68 or 69 but par was 71 or 72.  It seems like these numbers should be the same.
Course rating is the expected score a scratch golfer Will shoot under normal conditions, which tells you how difficult a course is. It's determined by a number of factors, including distance (which is why courses in Colorado typically rate lower, because the ball flies farther).

http://www.usga.org/handicapping/course_ratings/ratings_primer/Course-Rating-Primer/
post #6 of 44

Yes in CO the effective playing length is a big factor. Usually have to play in the 6900-7100 yard range to get a par rating. On shorter courses the rating gets as low as 5 under. Usually 6200-6400 gets in the 1 under range. Rightfully so, those short courses are fairly easy to score somewhat well on if there isn't an abundance of trees.

post #7 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

Why?

 

A course filled with 340-yard par fours is likely to have a low course rating, but you can't call a few of them par threes to even it up.

 

Huh?

That USGA article says scratch players are the yardstick by which courses are measured.  What is the point of referencing a scratch player's score if it doesn't mean anything?

post #8 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strandly View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

Why?

 

A course filled with 340-yard par fours is likely to have a low course rating, but you can't call a few of them par threes to even it up.

 

Huh?

That USGA article says scratch players are the yardstick by which courses are measured.  What is the point of referencing a scratch player's score if it doesn't mean anything?

 

What he's saying is, consider a course that has 18 holes that are all 340-yard par 4s with wide fairways, no bunkers and no water hazards. That's a par 72, but a scratch golfer is not going to shoot a 72.  He's going to get a lot of birdies on those short par 4s. So the course rating is going to be a lot lower than 72.

 

I.e., the course rating depends on the difficulty of the course, not the par.

post #9 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by sacm3bill View Post
 

What he's saying is, consider a course that has 18 holes that are all 340-yard par 4s with wide fairways, no bunkers and no water hazards. That's a par 72, but a scratch golfer is not going to shoot a 72.  He's going to get a lot of birdies on those short par 4s. So the course rating is going to be a lot lower than 72.

 

I.e., the course rating depends on the difficulty of the course, not the par.

 

Yes, thank you.

post #10 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by sacm3bill View Post
 

 

What he's saying is, consider a course that has 18 holes that are all 340-yard par 4s with wide fairways, no bunkers and no water hazards. That's a par 72, but a scratch golfer is not going to shoot a 72.  He's going to get a lot of birdies on those short par 4s. So the course rating is going to be a lot lower than 72.

 

I.e., the course rating depends on the difficulty of the course, not the par.

 

I know that.  Let me rephrase the question.  What is the point of having a par value that is different than the course rating?  To give hackers a few free strokes?  The change the "yardstick"?  Who cares (rhetorical) what a non-expert player can be expected to shoot on the course?

 

It just seems odd and unnecessarily confusing to have a par value that doesn't really tell you anything.  It's not what an expert can be expected to shoot, it's not what a bogey golfer can be expected to shoot.  It's like someone pulled a number out of their butt and decided that, to some degree, it's going to define success on the course.

post #11 of 44

The Par rating on the course is determined by the holes on the course.  4 par 5's 4 par 3's and the rest par 4's gets you to the pretty standard par 72.  A fair number of courses have only 3 par 5's which gets your 71.  How hard or easy the holes are have no bearing on this number its simply how many par 3,4, and 5's the course has. 

  Now the rating is what a scratch golfer would score on average on the given course.....So lets say the course rating is 72.  So basically a scratch golfer would usually shoot 72.  Lets just say that its around 6800 yards, medium width fairways, some trouble around the green but not terrible....Now take a course that I play fairly frequently.  Its rating is 67.1.  So the average scratch golfer that shot 72 on course one is going to probably shoot under par around the 67 rating.  This course is a par 71.  its incredibly short at just over 5800 yds, most of the fairway are pretty wide, not a lot of trouble at all around most of the greens.  The greens themselves can be tough.  But our scratch golfer, who is probably longer then average off the tee and more importantly pretty accurate with driver and irons is going to eat this place for lunch.  He is going to be on or next to the green in 2 on every par 5.  There is 2 par 4's that he has a good chance to drive the green, and if he misses again easy chip/pitch to give himself birdie chances.  There is probably only 3-4 holes where he doesn't hit driver on par 4's and 5's due to how big the landing area's are, and most of those holes he is going to have a wedge or 9 iron into the greens.....Now on the flip side another course that I frequent if you really want a challenge from the tips has a rating of 74.  Just under 7200 yds...651yd par 5, 4 par 4's at or over 450 with one just under 500.  The greens are fast, a lot of the fairways are a lot skinnier.  Some blind drives, well guarded greens in which a lot are set above the fairway.  

 

So the par rating is just showing you what the layout of the course is.  The course rating is giving you a idea of how hard the course actually plays compared to what one would expect a scratch golfer to score. 

post #12 of 44
The course I typically play is 6656 yards, 71.5, 123. Not real long, but there are a few stern holes where par is a good score.

Next week I play a match at Bardmoor CC, 6579 yards, par 72, rating 72.0, slope 127. It's slightly shorter but definitely tougher. I just don't like this course. Lots of trees and water. Some days my driver sprays the ball like a garden hose.

The toughest course I've played is the Golden Horseshoe in Williamsburg Va. 6817 yards, par 71, slope 144. I shot 75 that day. Not my lowest score, but one of my best rounds of course management. Toughest par 3's of any course I've played. Three over 200 yards with water all over the place. On several holes, you can be blocked by trees with your ball in the fairway.

Almost every year we play the Pine Barrens course in Brooksville Florida at 7259 yards, par 71. Doesn't list slope, but it's a monster. Shot 75 there the day after Phil Mickelson defeated David Toms in the Shell Wonderful World of Golf match (I think in 1999). We played the exact conditions the pros played. Played the tips of course. Won a couple of bucks that day. My playing partners got ate up by it. I was lucky to keep the ball in the fairway. The course has one hole that has 2 different greens a few hundred yards apart. A few times the starter forgot to tell us which green was in play that day, so we just picked one.

When I go back home to Jamestown NY (where my family lives), I always make a few treks to the North Hills in Corry Pa. That's my favorite course because I grew up playing it. 6424 yards, par 72, 69.6 rating, slope 125. Surprised the rating is so low. Maybe because the greens putt so well.

I went to school at the University of Florida long time ago. Played many, many rounds there. The course is 6701 yards, par 70, rating 72.4, slope 128. The greens are the most difficult I've played. My buddy and I tried out for the golf team as walk ons. Two rounds. I shot 75-76. He shot 72-73. We didn't even sniff a spot. Those guys were good. We played with one of the guys who made the team (not a starter). I remember him hitting a 4 wood off the tee on a 335 yard par four over the green on the fly. It was an elevated tee and downhill, but still. Got to play with a few on the mens and womens team over the years.
Edited by vangator - 7/9/14 at 11:19pm
post #13 of 44
@Strandly, you can't have a par 3.84. A hole can "rate out" at it though.
post #14 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

@Strandly, you can't have a par 3.84. A hole can "rate out" at it though.

 

So you're saying the difference between course rating and par is simply due to rounding?  Now that makes sense.

post #15 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strandly View Post
 

 

I know that.  Let me rephrase the question.  What is the point of having a par value that is different than the course rating?  To give hackers a few free strokes?  The change the "yardstick"?  Who cares (rhetorical) what a non-expert player can be expected to shoot on the course?

 

It just seems odd and unnecessarily confusing to have a par value that doesn't really tell you anything.  It's not what an expert can be expected to shoot, it's not what a bogey golfer can be expected to shoot.  It's like someone pulled a number out of their butt and decided that, to some degree, it's going to define success on the course.

The reason often comes out to a lack of space or the desire to make a course easier. Just because a course is filled with short par 4's, which makes it easier, doesn't mean you can turn some of them into par 3's to make the par rating equal the course rating.

 

The par value is just "par for the course" as the expression goes. Par on different holes is determined by length, not difficulty. A 300 yard par 4 is exceptionally easy, especially in Colorado, but it cannot become a par 3 because it is too long. 

 

Think of it this way: Par is a measure of how long individual holes are, course rating is how hard those holes are.

post #16 of 44
This reminds me of the scene from "City Slickers" when they're talking about programming the VCR. :)
post #17 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strandly View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

@Strandly, you can't have a par 3.84. A hole can "rate out" at it though.

 

So you're saying the difference between course rating and par is simply due to rounding?  Now that makes sense.

 

No the difference between par and course rating is they are two completely different concepts. Not sure why you think we need to throw away par and just use course rating, since they're 2 different things.

post #18 of 44

 I stopped trying to understand it long ago, especially when I see courses that are rated/sloped way harder/easier than counterparts but incorrectly.  I do know I played a 77.5/147 the other day which was 7438 yards Par 71 and it kicked the living crap outta me and I shot 85 and putted like Crenshaw.  It showed me that I gotta get some more length

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