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Azinger about Tiger Wood's Swing

post #1 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
 

"I think one of the big differences that's very rarely articulated is the fact that while Tiger in his dominance always - for whatever reason - was in this quest to get better, I don't remember Jack ever saying that," Azinger said.

"Jack might have made some tweaks and twerks here and there ... but Tiger has made astronomical changes in a quest to get better. And as a result, Tiger has actually got a little bit worse. I think we can all pretty much see that."

Azinger said several golfers have made a mistake changing the swing, but that Nicklaus was not one of them.

"Jack understood that if he could stay the same, he would still dominate," he said. "Tiger didn't need to get better. He just didn't need to get worse. He needed to stay the same and he could still dominate, and in his quest to get better, it's kind of backfired on him."


Read more: http://www.golf.com/ap-news/azinger-swing-changes-making-woods-worse#ixzz37AGyLUIY

 

 

 

 

Butch Harmon years (1996 - 2003): 39 wins, 8 Majors

Hank Haney Years (2004 - 2009): 31 wins, 6 Majors

Sean Foley (2010 - Current): 8 Wins, No Majors

 

Clearly the first swing change didn't hurt Tiger, he nearly matched his total wins and majors, in a shorter period of time. Right now, he's working with Foley, but clearly has been injured, which I don't think Azinger takes into account. If his original swing caused him to have that knee injury than a swing change would be needed to help extend his golfing career. 

 

I am not a big Tiger fan, but I will defend him on this one. I don't think Azinger sees the small details about this. Yea, the swing change didn't really hurt Tiger when he went from Butch to Haney. It is hard to judge his move from Haney to Foley because he's been injured. Clearly Tiger's game suffers when he can't practice a lot. I would like to see Tiger being near 100% healthy over the next 5 years to see how his career pans out before they start making comments about his swing changes. 

post #2 of 21
He's an interesting individual fer sure. Can't imagine trying to improve on being perhaps the GOAT.

Ultimately, it's hurt him. He's lost probably 3 years in his prime of majors opportunities where he just wasn't competitive due to transition periods. That's 12. With his earlier winning pctg, he could probably have picked off 3 or 4 of them.

The latest move was prompted more by a desire to swing in a way that would keep him out of surgery than by a desire to improve, although that was sure to be his expectation as well.

Again, it's an interesting mindset, maybe not so uncommon among pro golfers. Killed Paddy's game and probably a few others I'm not thinking about now. Can't think of any it's helped, at least going from the pinnacle and deciding to change.
post #3 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunther View Post

He's an interesting individual fer sure. Can't imagine trying to improve on being perhaps the GOAT.

Ultimately, it's hurt him. He's lost probably 3 years in his prime of majors opportunities where he just wasn't competitive due to transition periods. That's 12. With his earlier winning pctg, he could probably have picked off 3 or 4 of them.

The latest move was prompted more by a desire to swing in a way that would keep him out of surgery than by a desire to improve, although that was sure to be his expectation as well.

Again, it's an interesting mindset, maybe not so uncommon among pro golfers. Killed Paddy's game and probably a few others I'm not thinking about now. Can't think of any it's helped, at least going from the pinnacle and deciding to change.

 

I wouldn't say he lost 3 years in his prime. 5 wins in 2003 is pretty good, that was his last year with Butch, and transitioning with Hank. He lost 2004. Then he had a great stretch there with Haney. Then in 2008 he had that knee injury at the US Open, and in 2009 he had that incident with his ex-wife. After Haney he's had injuries pop up. So, I would say the swing changes cost him much of anything. Looked like he was getting back into form in 2013, but then again he got injured. I wouldn't rip him on the swing changes, they didn't mess up his game to the point he wasn't dominant. It only cost him what, 1 year between Butch and Harmon. It's hard to say what cost him between Haney and Foley. The swing changes or his injuries. 

 

post #4 of 21

I think we are downplaying injury and what caused the injury.  I think that is the primary reason Woods changed his swing.  He felt the swing he had caused the damage to happen IMO.

post #5 of 21

To add to the comments already here, I think changing your swing in your early 20's is far easier than changing your swing in your late 30's. One must take this into account. 

post #6 of 21

LIke mentioned above, the injuries he's had has caused swing changes. He made changes in '04 and it only made him better. He dominated from '05-'08 winning nearly 50% of the majors he played in that time (6 of 14). He's had to tweak his swing after two big knee surgeries to take pressure off of it, and he hasn't won a major since. Now with his back, he may take some more pressure off.

 

I think it's unfortunate for him and for those who like to see domination, but it is what it is. Jack was Roger Federer....he didn't have any injury problems growing up whereas Tiger's Rafael Nadal and they pop up on a regular basis.

post #7 of 21

I mostly agree with Zinger but it's a thesis that can't be proven. Tiger claims that he had to change his swing to prolong his career. I believe that he would have won several more majors before turning 34 if he hadn't changed his swing...I believe that his body would have broken down around 35 with his original swing but that has happened anyway and I don't think he wins another major now. So the way I view it, he should have milked that swing for all it was worth in his prime and he may very well have matched or surpassed Jack before 2009. Regardless, there's no way to prove either scenario and Tiger will certainly never admit to making a mistake in the past with regards to his swing changes.

post #8 of 21
Thread Starter 

Results timeline

Tournament 1995 1996 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014
Masters Tournament T41LA CUT 1 T8 T18 5 1 1 T15 T22 1 T3 T2 2 T6 T4 T4 T40 T4 DNP
U.S. Open WD T82 T19 T18 T3 1 T12 1 T20 T17 2 CUT T2 1 T6 T4 DNP T21 T32 DNP
The Open Championship T68 T22LA T24 3 T7 1 T25 T28 T4 T9 1 1 T12 DNP CUT T23 DNP T3 T6  
PGA Championship DNP DNP T29 T10 1 1 T29 2 T39 T24 T4 1 1 DNP 2 T28 CUT T11 T40  

 

Not to sure about that. Tiger changed swing coaches in March 2004, so right before the Master's 2004. I think he went a year with out a swing coach between the two. He did have that slump, even still he was in the top 25, 7 out of the 8 Majors. 

 

Does he win more Major's if he stayed on with Butch, I am not sure. I mean, he still won 6 Majors in 5 years under Hank. The only time he had a drought was when he went a year with out a swing coach and when he's been injured. 

 

From 2008 to present he hasn't played in 6 Majors due to Injury. Who knows how many others he tried to play hurt. 

 

If Tiger stays with Butch does he win a few more Majors, I am not sure he does or doesn't. Tiger had 7+ years with Butch and I am sure he wasn't too far off his game in 2003. He did win 5 times that year with out Butch, he just didn't win a major. 2004 is probably the lost year because he only won once on tour and no Majors. That was due to swing changes. 

 

Tiger didn't win a Major in 1998 either. So, it wasn't like he didn't have a stretch of not winning majors before. 

 

So could he have gotten another major or two, possibly. 

post #9 of 21

It's kind of like politicans saying things would have been even worse in the economy had we not spent those added trillions of dollars to prop things up...we may have all opinions on the validity of the statement but there's no way of proving it because there's no way to show how history would have unfolded had something not happened.

post #10 of 21
Some have speculated that the injuries have been caused by his work out regime. Haney seemed to think some of his knee issues were the result of time he spent with Army Rangers at Ft. Bragg, and running in combat boots rather than proper running shoes. There is no question that Tiger increased his bulk in his upper, and it is possible he has had to modify his swing to accomodate his increased size rather than to avoid injury. Regardless of the changes, he did win 5 times last year. I just think, based on other players with the same back surgery, it is going to take longer to get back to 100% this time.
post #11 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by caniac6 View Post

Some have speculated that the injuries have been caused by his work out regime. Haney seemed to think some of his knee issues were the result of time he spent with Army Rangers at Ft. Bragg, and running in combat boots rather than proper running shoes. There is no question that Tiger increased his bulk in his upper, and it is possible he has had to modify his swing to accomodate his increased size rather than to avoid injury. Regardless of the changes, he did win 5 times last year. I just think, based on other players with the same back surgery, it is going to take longer to get back to 100% this time.

 

God, Rangers run in combat boots all the time and they don't have knee injuries. That is total BS. Actually some traditional running shoes have been proven to cause knee injuries as well. Look up barefoot running. The science behind it is sound. Haney might know some about golf, he knows nothing about why Tiger was injures. 

 

He isn't bulky at all. Have you ever seen him in person, he looks like a normal fit person for his height. That whole thing about him being too big to swing a golf club is crap.

 

I think it was his swing that hurt his knee, not anything he was doing outside of golf. 

post #12 of 21
Mabye bulk was not the right word, but Tiger has added a lot of muscle. I have seen Tiger in person, and I did not think he looked normal. I thought he looked extremely strong fit much like a wide receiver. I just wonder if he is as obsessive about his work out as his golf swing. I wonder if fine tuning becomes over tuning. Also, I lived near Ft. Bragg, and I never saw anyone running in combat boots. All the pt I saw was in running shoes.
post #13 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by caniac6 View Post

Mabye bulk was not the right word, but Tiger has added a lot of muscle. I have seen Tiger in person, and I did not think he looked normal. I thought he looked extremely strong fit much like a wide receiver. I just wonder if he is as obsessive about his work out as his golf swing. I wonder if fine tuning becomes over tuning. Also, I lived near Ft. Bragg, and I never saw anyone running in combat boots. All the pt I saw was in running shoes.

I was in the AF, we too ran in sneakers, even back in the 80's. Some special forces may still run in boots but I don't think so.
post #14 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by caniac6 View Post

Mabye bulk was not the right word, but Tiger has added a lot of muscle. I have seen Tiger in person, and I did not think he looked normal. I thought he looked extremely strong fit much like a wide receiver. I just wonder if he is as obsessive about his work out as his golf swing. I wonder if fine tuning becomes over tuning. Also, I lived near Ft. Bragg, and I never saw anyone running in combat boots. All the pt I saw was in running shoes.


Hmmm. I didn't know they quit running in combat boots. Do they issue running shoes now in basic too?

post #15 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by MS256 View Post


Hmmm. I didn't know they quit running in combat boots. Do they issue running shoes now in basic too?
TBH, I don't recall for sure but don't think they issued them, think we had to provide our own. I know we have some current GIs here that could help clear that up.
post #16 of 21
Paul azinger doesn't know too much about the golf swing (if his appearance with Chamblee on the golf channel is any indication), so i don't take what he says too seriously.

Plus, his evidence is really anecdotal. "I don't remember jack ever saying that?" That's basically useless.

Or, what about hogan? He was a swing obsessive like tiger and it obviously didn't make him worse.
post #17 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post

 

Butch Harmon years (1996 - 2003): 39 wins, 8 Majors

Hank Haney Years (2004 - 2009): 31 wins, 6 Majors

Sean Foley (2010 - Current): 8 Wins, No Majors

 

It is hard to judge his move from Haney to Foley because he's been injured. Clearly Tiger's game suffers when he can't practice a lot. I would like to see Tiger being near 100% healthy over the next 5 years to see how his career pans out before they start making comments about his swing changes. 

 

One thing about Tiger going from Haney to Foley. Towards the end of his Haney run Tiger's swing was terrible and he was hitting it all over the map. While Tiger hasn't won a major under Foley, I do think Sean helped Tiger get his swing in better order.

post #18 of 21

Injuries has unfortunately made a negativ impact on Tiger's performance since switching to Foley (not implying the swing changes caused it). Majors are missing, but when he was healthy and played regularly, he won a lot of tournaments.

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