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Multiple penalties on same shot??

post #1 of 12
Thread Starter 

Today a guy in my group hit his parked cart with a shot.  I was going to come in here and ask if it is a penalty because it was a shared cart and the other occupant is a fellow competitor, not a partner or caddie.  Turns out, I didn't need to because the answer lies in the first Decision of Rule 19.  Decision 19/1 says that so long as the FC isn't actually moving the cart at the time, it and everything in it are considered yours.  So, per Rule 19-2, the player incurs a penalty of one stroke and the ball must be played as it lies.

 

The thing is ... he lost that ball.  After it hit the cart it either deflected OB, or some random direction that nobody saw and he had to replay.  So the question is:

 

Does the lost ball "over-ride" the one stroke penalty and he re-hits lying 3 or does he incur both penalties since the ball clearly struck the cart before it got lost, and thus re-hits lying 4??  (He carded a 6 on the hole, so I know that he went with the latter option because he hit 3 more times from that point on)

 

Thanks!

post #2 of 12

There is no hard-and-fast rule for this, but Decision 1-4/12 provides guidance.

 

My opinion would be scenario 2 under that decision is what applies here.  A single act resulted in multiple rules being breached, so a single penalty would apply; the more severe penalty of stroke and distance for the lost ball.

 

I'm sure Rulesman or Foutputt will correct me if I'm mistaken.

post #3 of 12

This is a question of a single act resulting in two Rules being breached.  In order to apply only one penalty, we need to consider the relationship between the two Rules.  The example of a single penalty given in D1-4/12 is of raking a bunker being a breach of 13-4 and 13-2.  In that case you can see how close the two Rules are:  touching the ground in the bunker (13-4) can result in improvement of lie or line of play (13-2).  

 

What is the relationship between hitting your own equipment and the ball unfortunately bouncing OOB or being lost?   Although one is the consequence of the other, there is in my view no relationship close enough in rules terms to justify a single penalty.  The ball going out of bounds was not an inevitable outcome of hitting the cart.  You could have had a lucky with the ball bouncing back on to a favourable lie on the fairway.  The deflection is the random outcome of hitting something.

 

I see this as clearly being separate breaches of two unconnected Rules and would apply the 1 stroke penalty for hitting your equipment and the stroke and distance for the OOB/lost ball.

post #4 of 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
 

This is a question of a single act resulting in two Rules being breached.  In order to apply only one penalty, we need to consider the relationship between the two Rules.  The example of a single penalty given in D1-4/12 is of raking a bunker being a breach of 13-4 and 13-2.  In that case you can see how close the two Rules are:  touching the ground in the bunker (13-4) can result in improvement of lie or line of play (13-2).  

 

What is the relationship between hitting your own equipment and the ball unfortunately bouncing OOB or being lost?   Although one is the consequence of the other, there is in my view no relationship close enough in rules terms to justify a single penalty.  The ball going out of bounds was not an inevitable outcome of hitting the cart.  You could have had a lucky with the ball bouncing back on to a favourable lie on the fairway.  The deflection is the random outcome of hitting something.

 

I see this as clearly being separate breaches of two unconnected Rules and would apply the 1 stroke penalty for hitting your equipment and the stroke and distance for the OOB/lost ball.

 

I see your point and that does make sense.  Hopefully we'll get additional confirmation.

post #5 of 12

Colin is correct.

 

19-2/2

Player's Ball Strikes Own Caddie and Comes to Rest Out of Bounds

Q.A player's ball accidentally strikes his caddie, who is standing in bounds, and the ball comes to rest out of bounds. What is the ruling?

A.The player incurs a penalty of one stroke (Rule 19-2) and, since the ball lies out of bounds, he must proceed under Rule 27-1, incurring another penalty stroke.

post #6 of 12

Aha!  I'd forgotten about that Decision.  Could have save some time. :-)

post #7 of 12

I remember seeing a pretty funny video of a guy barely missing a put, tossing his putter lightly in the air but failing to catch it. While lunging forward in an attempt to stop it from hitting the ball (which it did anyway), he stumbled forward and fell on the green, and the ball rolled into him, incurring what I think was essentially a four-stroke penalty. I can't find the video anymore, sadly.

post #8 of 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grndslmhttr3 View Post
 

I remember seeing a pretty funny video of a guy barely missing a put, tossing his putter lightly in the air but failing to catch it. While lunging forward in an attempt to stop it from hitting the ball (which it did anyway), he stumbled forward and fell on the green, and the ball rolled into him, incurring what I think was essentially a four-stroke penalty. I can't find the video anymore, sadly.

 

Video (Click to show)

 

Not really on topic, but that's only a one-stroke penalty (link). The same act resulted in multiple infractions - once the ball was hit by the putter the fact that it hit other "player things" was irrelevant.

 

The equivalent in Drew's example would have been if the ball hit the cart, ricocheted back and hit the player, and then hit the cart again, or something like that. The acts themselves are somewhat similar or more directly linked.

post #9 of 12
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rulesman View Post
 

Colin is correct.

 

19-2/2

Player's Ball Strikes Own Caddie and Comes to Rest Out of Bounds

Q.A player's ball accidentally strikes his caddie, who is standing in bounds, and the ball comes to rest out of bounds. What is the ruling?

A.The player incurs a penalty of one stroke (Rule 19-2) and, since the ball lies out of bounds, he must proceed under Rule 27-1, incurring another penalty stroke.

:doh:  Crap, how did I miss this??  Must have been cuz it was late at night.  Anyways, thanks!

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
 

What is the relationship between hitting your own equipment and the ball unfortunately bouncing OOB or being lost?   Although one is the consequence of the other, there is in my view no relationship close enough in rules terms to justify a single penalty.  The ball going out of bounds was not an inevitable outcome of hitting the cart.  You could have had a lucky with the ball bouncing back on to a favourable lie on the fairway.  The deflection is the random outcome of hitting something.

The funny thing is that while this was going on, I was on the other side of the hole in the trees doing almost exactly the same thing.  The key difference is that my ball hit a tree.  Because he was having his own debacle, and our third was busy prepping for his shot in the middle of the fairway, nobody saw or heard anything after it creamed the tree branch 30 yards in front of me.  It's pretty hard to search for a lost ball when you have no flipping idea where to start looking.  I just got in my cart (after hitting a good provisional) and drove towards my provisional like I was on Lombard street in SF, just hoping to find the danged thing.  No luck. :loco:

post #10 of 12

Asked and answered, but I've gotta know, how the heck did he manage to hit his own cart?!  Did the FC move it forward to play his shot?

post #11 of 12
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post
 

Asked and answered, but I've gotta know, how the heck did he manage to hit his own cart?!  Did the FC move it forward to play his shot?

LOL ... my wife asked the same thing.  It was our last hole, and he was really, really struggling.  Carded a 9 a few holes prior and could not get anything going.  You could tell he was pretty flustered at this point.  So his drive fades into the rough on the right and I saw it so I lead them over there, but I go one valley too far.  I get out and start looking and he does as well.  I see it about 25 yards behind our carts.  His partner then tells him that he's going to walk up to his ball, and I guess he doesn't hear him and just grabs his club and runs back to his ball.  So, basically, they both left it sitting there, 30 yards or so in front of him. He probably got to his ball, turned around, and saw it and thought "I'm aiming further right and higher ... I can't hit that thing."

 

Then he thought ... "Oops."

post #12 of 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

Video (Click to show)

Not really on topic, but that's only a one-stroke penalty (link). The same act resulted in multiple infractions - once the ball was hit by the putter the fact that it hit other "player things" was irrelevant.

The equivalent in Drew's example would have been if the ball hit the cart, ricocheted back and hit the player, and then hit the cart again, or something like that. The acts themselves are somewhat similar or more directly linked.
There it is, thanks! I figured the issue being discussed in this thread was similar enough that I could just bring it up here. I guess his embarrassment was worse than a multiple-stroke penalty, anyway b2_tongue.gif
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