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Phil Mickelson says he might not deserve Ryder Cup pick - Page 2

post #19 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinsk View Post

Patrick Reed? Reed? No business being there. 

 

 

I have no affinity for Reed one way or the other, but if he finishes in the top 12 of a team points race that takes 12 players then to me he has a valid reason to be there. And I would watch the Ryder Cup regardless of who is or is not playing. 

post #20 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

 

Bein' just a tad hyperbolic there, eh @MEfree??   He's never (ever, ever, ever????) made the cut in the Open Championship????  Wow, that is hard to imagine, <sarcasm> ... considering his Open "career" started, hmmmm ... 6 days ago.

I found "never made a cut" a convenient way to say "missed the cut in his only Open appearance" that emphasizes both his inexperience playing in Europe and the fact that he didn't play well when he did get a chance.  The fact that his Open career started only 6 days ago is relevant to me, especially in light that he didn't play well.  I'd have no problem taking Reed had he showed decent form recently and made the cut at the Open, but to take an inexperienced player, out of form doesn't seem to make much sense.  Of course, if he plays well in the coming weeks, he can make the top 9 in which case I have no issue with him being on the team.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 9iron View Post
 

 

 

 

I understand why the Captain has the picks to begin with, and I hear what you are saying as well. Plus, I'm about as big a Phil fan as there can be. Having said all of this, what we have been doing in Ryder Cup hasn't been working, and neither would I expect the same old-same old to work this time. Taking whomever ends up in positions 10 thru 12 may not work any better, but it would send a clear message that you need to earn it and maybe that would serve us well down the road. 

New blood might not be a bad idea, but it might also be worthwhile to examine how Captain's picks inside the top 12 have done vs those outside the top 12.  I don't know the answer to this, but recall some years where all the Captain's picks were inside the top 12 and other years where they were not.  I do recall that Tiger posted a good record at the President's Cup one year as a Captain's pick (I believe outside the top 12).  Watson should use the freedom given to him to pick the 3 guys that he feels give the team the best chance of winning.

post #21 of 38
I would hate to be Tom Watson and have to tell Patrick Reed that he didn't make the team. Wooo boy I could see him not taking that well.
post #22 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamo View Post

I would hate to be Tom Watson and have to tell Patrick Reed that he didn't make the team. Wooo boy I could see him not taking that well.

 

I could see Patrick Reed now:

 

Reed: "What? I already bought my plane ticket? You stupid old man! Don't you know a top-5 golfer when you see one?"

post #23 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 

I found "never made a cut" a convenient way to say "missed the cut in his only Open appearance" that emphasizes both his inexperience playing in Europe and the fact that he didn't play well when he did get a chance.  The fact that his Open career started only 6 days ago is relevant to me, especially in light that he didn't play well.  I'd have no problem taking Reed had he showed decent form recently and made the cut at the Open, but to take an inexperienced player, out of form doesn't seem to make much sense.  Of course, if he plays well in the coming weeks, he can make the top 9 in which case I have no issue with him being on the team.

Well, it wasn't.  It was spin.  A convenient way to say he missed the cut in his only open appearance and he doesn't have a lot of experience playing in Europe would be ... and I'm just spitballing here, so bear with me ... "He missed the cut in his only Open appearance and he doesn't have a lot of experience playing in Europe."   Saying he's "never made the cut in the Open" while knowing the entire truth is purposefully leaving out information to try and help make a case.

 

Follow up questions:  How much does experience in Europe even matter?  Do putts over there all break uphill?  Or is every course over there the same style and completely different than the courses over here?

 

Reed seems like precisely the type of guy we could use on a Ryder Cup team.  However, the things that would worry me are what @Vinsk said:  He's not playing well lately.  Period.  If I'm picking the team, and on the fence about Reed, that's all I'm concerned about.

post #24 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post

Follow up questions:  How much does experience in Europe even matter?  Do putts over there all break uphill?  Or is every course over there the same style and completely different than the courses over here?

From what I understand, once you get east of the Mid-Atlantic Mountain Range, the effects of Lake Merced begin to die down. Reed's just not used to that.
post #25 of 38
Tiger won 5 times last year. Health crumbled now just back to playing and it's being questioned if he'll make the team.

Reed won twice and since has flopped miserably with no injury. A new baby, but otherwise just showed he was hot for 2 weeks.

And this is what we need for our team?
post #26 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinsk View Post

Tiger won 5 times last year. Health crumbled now just back to playing and it's being questioned if he'll make the team.

Reed won twice and since has flopped miserably with no injury. A new baby, but otherwise just showed he was hot for 2 weeks.

And this is what we need for our team?

 

Yeah, Reed is going to get mentioned mainly because he's the next guy on the list in Ryder's Cup points, but he hasn't done anything really before this year, and the only history there of being any good in match play really comes from his amateur career.  I think the whole point of having captain's picks is so that you can leave guys like Reed off in favor of more deserving players.

 

But partly, I think Reed also has a very competitive personality, somewhat like Ian Poulter, and people think he might actually be good at this sort of thing, and maybe change the attitude of the team a bit. But I'd buy into that more if there were more of a resume there of sucess in things like the Match Play championship. I think he might be an intriguing guy in the future, I don't think he's there yet. I also think Harris English might be an intriguing guy for this sort of thing in the future, but he isn't ready for it yet either.

 

And I don't see a need to really change the dynamic of the team. The fact that most of the same guys were on the team that lost a close match 14 1/2 to 13 1/2 two years ago is a poor reason to not go with your best players.  I'd rather give these guys a shot at a rematch. Maybe this time Webb Simpson beats Ian Poulter, or Bubba Watson beats Luke Donald, or Phil Mickelson beats Justin Rose.    

post #27 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by acerimusdux View Post
 

 

Yeah, Reed is going to get mentioned mainly because he's the next guy on the list in Ryder's Cup points, but he hasn't done anything really before this year, and the only history there of being any good in match play really comes from his amateur career.  I think the whole point of having captain's picks is so that you can leave guys like Reed off in favor of more deserving players.

 

But partly, I think Reed also has a very competitive personality, somewhat like Ian Poulter, and people think he might actually be good at this sort of thing, and maybe change the attitude of the team a bit. But I'd buy into that more if there were more of a resume there of sucess in things like the Match Play championship. I think he might be an intriguing guy in the future, I don't think he's there yet. I also think Harris English might be an intriguing guy for this sort of thing in the future, but he isn't ready for it yet either.

 

And I don't see a need to really change the dynamic of the team. The fact that most of the same guys were on the team that lost a close match 14 1/2 to 13 1/2 two years ago is a poor reason to not go with your best players.  I'd rather give these guys a shot at a rematch. Maybe this time Webb Simpson beats Ian Poulter, or Bubba Watson beats Luke Donald, or Phil Mickelson beats Justin Rose.  

Gotta disagree with the bold.  I would argue that the most "deserving" would simply be the top 12 in the Ryder Cup standings.  If you're leaving off a guy who's in 10th for somebody outside of the top 12, then that somebody is certainly not more deserving.**  The captain would simply be saying that he thought that person gave them a better chance to win.

 

**Well, not certainly.  There could be a case where a guy was hurt to the point that he wasn't playing enough to rack up necessary points, but then was playing well leading up to the Ryder Cup.  But I don't think there are any players like that in the 13-16 range right now, are there?

 

The case for leaving Reed off the team, IMO, starts and ends with this:  He's not playing that well right now.  Since his win at Doral, he's played in 11 tournaments, and missed the cut in 6 of those.  The only good news for him is that his best finishes (T11 and T26) are two of the most recent tournaments.

 

I suspect in his case that if he is in the top 12, come decision time, it means he's probably played fairly decently for several weeks, and Watson will pick him.  I hope that happens.  I'd love to see him face off against Ian Poulter.  They got an a-hole that everybody hates 51.5 weeks a year and love for 1 week every two years ... why can't we have one of those??

post #28 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

Gotta disagree with the bold.  I would argue that the most "deserving" would simply be the top 12 in the Ryder Cup standings. 

 

I think the Ryder Cup standings are a horrible way to pick the most deserving. They give no weight to prior PGA performance, aside from 2013 majors, and put too much weight only on 2014 money won. I think there would be better ways of determining who is most deserving. But I also think any formula is bound to be flawed in some way, which is why it's good to have Captian's picks which aren't required to follow this formula.

post #29 of 38
All good points. I would like to see some fire from the younger guys.
post #30 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

 

 

Follow up questions:  How much does experience in Europe even matter?  Do putts over there all break uphill?  Or is every course over there the same style and completely different than the courses over here?

 

 

I think traveling to Europe, dealing with jet lag, a crowd that is rooting against you, etc. can have an effect on a player.  The same can be true for the Euros, but in reverse.  Some players have shown that they are pretty good at overcoming these obstacles, but others, not so much.    

post #31 of 38

Putting aside my distaste for the guy, I can't see Reed performing well in the Cup. He's too much of an inexperienced hothead and the pressure/environment over there would really get to him I think.

 

Obviously a lot is depedent on what Tiger does over the next few weeks, but I think Phil, Webb and either ZJ or Harris English look like solid picks to me (If ZJ doesn't qualify). I'm on the fence on Keegan- lots of energy and enthusiasm but that can work both ways for you. If Tiger shows some life, I think Watson goes with Tiger, Phil and Webb.

post #32 of 38
I believe Keegan will assuredly be a pick (he went to Gleneagles with the captain last week). He'll partner with Phil. I think Tiger has a 70% chance to be the 3rd pick, Webber will go if he doesn't. I'm sure there are odds in England somewhere, I'd like to put some $ down on it.
post #33 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

 I'd love to see him face off against Ian Poulter.  They got an a-hole that everybody hates 51.5 weeks a year and love for 1 week every two years ... why can't we have one of those??

 

I think that's very true with Poulter, and I think there's something to be said for using Reed to try and inject a bit of bite into a team that's normally pretty lame. I think you need to weigh up the pros and cons however about the merits of trying to do this at home and overseas, before making a definitive decision. The likes of Azinger and Pavin might have bigged it up at Kiawah, that's the easy part (not that Azinger won a point again after it) but ultimately playing to a gallery to get involved has its limits when you're 3500 away and outnumbered 25 to 1

 

I'm not saying it can't be done, (Poulter showed that it could) but it's a lot harder to acheive this way round, and has a much greater capacity to backfire as one of two things can happen. The individual who is held to be responsible for stirring up a hostile crowd becomes the target for their abuse allowing others to go under the radar..... or..... the crowd start to turn on the entire team and we get the sort of behaviour that we've seen before from American galleries at Kiawah and Brookline (didn't notice it as much as Valhalla - perhaps Kentuckians are more sophisticated than they are in Masscheusetts?). It might be interesting (though undoubtedly distasteful) to see how an American team repsonded to the same level of abuse that Europe has put up with in the past. It would be whole knew experience for them when their wives came back in the evening to tell them how they'd had to remove their name badges after they were being spat at by drunken Americans (Brookline)

 

Having said that, I still believe that the historic behaviour of American fans, media, players, and adminsitrative bodies (in that order) has been by far and away the single biggest motivating factor for European teams post 1991. America might go on these periodic journeys looking for explanations as to why they keep losing, and how Europe keeps raising their game etc but they don't want to face up to the single biggest thing that's driving Europe because it asks some pretty unpleasent questions of them, and requires they take an honest look at themselves and perhaps see themselves in a light they'd rather not do so. Denial and seeking solace in more palatable explanations is always the default position to adopt under these circumstances. To a large extent America has contributed to the European level of performance, and by the same token, can impact it again if they were prepared to realise what they were doing that was motivating the opposition

 

I should say for balance though, that I think I'm detecting that in recent renewals (the last two certainly) its been the European galleries that have been the worst behaved (or starting to become so). I think it's important that you try and take the crowd out of the match when playing away from home, and that's why i thought the decision to send Corey Pavin over in 2010 was a massive mistake, and probably illustrates just how out of touch with the zietgeist the PGA are. It's why I also believe asking Tom to take the hotseat at Gleneagles is inspired though. I can't honestly think of better qualified American alive (Homer Simpson possibly?) who could defuse a crowd in Scotland better than Tom Watson. If the skipper can level things up in this area, then he's already done half his job, so having a provocative star spangled meat head like Reed potentially undoing all of this in the space of a single foursomes isn't a risk I think I'd run, and certainly on foreign soil (save it for Hazeltine)

post #34 of 38

Big Phil fan here. Although, I like what he said, I feel better with him on the team. He is like another coach of sorts. He gets juiced up playing with a younger teammate alongside him. He still is the most exciting player to watch in my opinion.

post #35 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aguirre View Post

He's 12th in the points right now.  I don't care if he qualifies or not, Watson should pick him.  Jimmie Walker is 2nd in the standings.  I'm sure the European team is quaking in their spikes over facing Jimmie Walker four times in the Ryder Cup.
I disagree. I know Jimmy Walker was basically a 35 year old journeyman until this year, but he's been kicking ass all year. He's been the FedEx cup leader and one of the best and most consistent players out on tour. I know he's inexperienced and doesn't have the "name" or "killer instinct" of a Mickelson or Woods, but I think he'll do well.
post #36 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by RJH999 View Post


I disagree. I know Jimmy Walker was basically a 35 year old journeyman until this year, but he's been kicking ass all year. He's been the FedEx cup leader and one of the best and most consistent players out on tour. I know he's inexperienced and doesn't have the "name" or "killer instinct" of a Mickelson or Woods, but I think he'll do well.

 

I'll take Phil and Tiger's sample size, Walker's form or not.  Anyway, it isn't a question of whether or not to take Good Times or one of the two best players of this generation.  Walker's making the team.  

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