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Snark and Assorted Topics

post #1 of 102
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

I concede, @turtleback, that there are more people who do not apply more than very basic thinking than I had originally believed.

I was wrong, and you, @turtleback
, were closer to correct in the sheer number of these types of people.

Congratulations to you. :

P.S. Did you read this, @turtleback
?
Erik, look, I get the frustration but as the owner of this site, I find you to be one of it's snarkiest members. You continually belittle people (me once or twice but I'm a big boy and typically don't respond in kind). Your partner NEVER responds in this fashion.

I appreciate your efforts and you've helped me a time or two, which is great but I'd propose that you do as you so often admonish and keep the personal, albeit subtle, attacks to yourself. Or, stop the admonishments.

I'm prepared for the onslaught, go nuts but it's something I've noticed since long before I joined. Practice what you preach.

Hopefully you take this as constructive criticism.
post #2 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunther View Post

Erik, look, I get the frustration but as the owner of this site, I find you to be one of it's snarkiest members. You continually belittle people (me once or twice but I'm a big boy and typically don't respond in kind). Your partner NEVER responds in this fashion.

I appreciate your efforts and you've helped me a time or two, which is great but I'd propose that you do as you so often admonish and keep the personal, albeit subtle, attacks to yourself. Or, stop the admonishments.

I'm prepared for the onslaught, go nuts but it's something I've noticed since long before I joined. Practice what you preach.

Hopefully you take this as constructive criticism.
Boom.
post #3 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunther View Post

Erik, look, I get the frustration but as the owner of this site, I find you to be one of it's snarkiest members.

 

I appreciate that you can see it that way. I don't, truly. My quoting of that post and referring to @turtleback goes back a ways. He's maintained that a lot of people simply say "18 > 14" and I've said, until today, that I think he over-estimates the number of people who do that.

 

@9iron was the straw that broke the camel's back in my maintaining that it isn't so. Thinking simply "18 > 14" is not right or wrong, nor did I say that, but it is an undeniably awfully simple way of looking at the question of who is GOAT.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunther View Post

You continually belittle people (me once or twice but I'm a big boy and typically don't respond in kind).

 

As well, I do not see this as belittling. It's a statement of fact - "18 > 14 is a simple way of looking at things." Do you disagree? Because you're free to, but back up your case. Far too often people seem to be personally offended by disagreement. I don't understand this, and perhaps never will.

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunther View Post

I appreciate your efforts and you've helped me a time or two, which is great but I'd propose that you do as you so often admonish and keep the personal, albeit subtle, attacks to yourself. Or, stop the admonishments.

 

I see that post as neither a personal attack nor an admonishment. Heck, it's one of the many posts in which I admit I was wrong about something. @turtleback has pointed it out a few times lately - I'm giving him credit for being right all along.

 

IMO, people are relatively thin-skinned, and though I'm guilty of assuming that everyone is thicker skinned than they are, I've also learned enough about myself to know who I am. I'm as honest and direct a person as you'll find, but I also understand the difference between attacking a person (i.e. "you are stupid") to attacking an idea, or what someone says or does ("that was stupid."). I've softened over the years, and left things unsaid more than in the past, but I'm still me.

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunther View Post

I'm prepared for the onslaught, go nuts but it's something I've noticed since long before I joined. Practice what you preach.

 

I'm not sure I understand this, as I feel I practice exactly what I preach. I do not attack people or call them names. I've said before and I'll say again that the line is drawn between "you are stupid" and "that is stupid."

 

And again, I find that people seem to take statements like "you are wrong" far too personally. I can't do much to help that. "You are wrong" is not a personal attack, and I am usually quite careful about when I say things like that. Opinions can't be wrong, or right. Facts can be. And if I am wrong, I expect to be called on it. Whether it's my background in science, or not, I've never taken "you're wrong" as a personal attack. If anything, it's an opportunity to learn. And "that's stupid" is an opportunity to further explain yourself or, in this case to @turtleback, to admit I was wrong about how many people seem to apply only "18 > 14" type logic to what I see as a fairly complex issue.

 

Look… the people in my life know where they stand with me. I hated the high school games of people talking behind the backs of others, and vowed not to do it. So people know where they stand. They know I'm direct, and honest, and they appreciate it. People also know that I understand and appreciate the differences on each side of that line.

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunther View Post

Hopefully you take this as constructive criticism.

 

I did, but by the same token, hopefully you too can realize that perhaps because this forum is a text-based medium, and because you cannot hear tone of voice, see facial expressions, or ask quick follow-up or clarifying questions, you could very easily be misreading things to have a tone or something that does not exist.

 

Now, then, this is off-topic, so I'll move this to the Grill Room. People are welcome to share their thoughts, just as I've shared mine. Go ahead.

post #4 of 102
I think a lot of people dont like discussing things-They join a forum and want to say what they think and have people agree with them and not have anything told to them about how they are misguided.

Its like sports for kids with no scorekeeping, everyone gets a medal, everyone wins.-Garbage.

You spoke truth to power and it got you a reasoned response with thought.-Everyone can get misunderstood-LORD knows I have been-But if we all remember its not personal and figure we could discuss it over a beer while watchin some golf on the telly then we will all be ok.
post #5 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil McGleno View Post

I think a lot of people dont like discussing things-They join a forum and want to say what they think and have people agree with them and not have anything told to them about how they are misguided.

Its like sports for kids with no scorekeeping, everyone gets a medal, everyone wins.-Garbage.

You spoke truth to power and it got you a reasoned response with thought.-Everyone can get misunderstood-LORD knows I have been-But if we all remember its not personal and figure we could discuss it over a beer while watchin some golf on the telly then we will all be ok.
This.

It's almost like some people (not meaning you @Gunther ) feel that disagreement is rude.
:-?
post #6 of 102
I am starting to see the value of drinking.

Other than that, what keeps me here, is that I know the truth is always most important. We're big kids now, it is okay to be wrong about something.
post #7 of 102
Or just to disagree.-We are in golf, not a lot of facts contrary to what wed like to think.-If someone disagrees with you, make yoru case. If they agree great you can be pen pals with them.-But make your case. Ive never had a problem with anyone who wants to make their case and disagree with me and Ive never seen Mike or Eric errr Erik or anyone else have a problem either.-People get all pissy when someone disagrees with them. Its not personal its disagreeing.-Ask my wife, she disagrees with me all the time, then calls me the disagreeable one! a2_wink.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by cipher View Post

I am starting to see the value of drinking.

Other than that, what keeps me here, is that I know the truth is always most important. We're big kids now, it is okay to be wrong about something.
post #8 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil McGleno View Post

Or just to disagree.-We are in golf, not a lot of facts contrary to what wed like to think.-If someone disagrees with you, make yoru case. If they agree great you can be pen pals with them.-But make your case. Ive never had a problem with anyone who wants to make their case and disagree with me and Ive never seen Mike or Eric errr Erik or anyone else have a problem either.-People get all pissy when someone disagrees with them. Its not personal its disagreeing.-Ask my wife, she disagrees with me all the time, then calls me the disagreeable one! a2_wink.gif

Agree.  Way too much sensitivity and defensiveness out there.

post #9 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post

Agree.  Way too much sensitivity and defensiveness out there.
F**k you.
post #10 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernest Jones View Post


F**k you.

:banana:  (I wish they also had a dancing banana that was facing into the computer showing you his ass) 

post #11 of 102
You mean this place isn't like Facebook, post something everyone tells you how wonderful you are???

WTF?? I am out of here then ...

Honestly it took a little bit to get the feel of this forum ... And I am even a moderator on a non-golf forum ... What I first thought of as rude, was simply and honest debate on a topic.

What I have also discovered, is if you REALLY want learn the game, rules, and how to play better, this is THE place to be. Just have your facts together if you want to debate a topic ...
post #12 of 102

This post isn't to anyone in particular.

 

While it's easy to nitpick certain posts, Erik's contributions are what make this site so great. He encourages forum leaders to welcome new members, encourages debate and an overall friendly environment. There are other golf sites then end up being more of a shouting match than a discussion.

 

Erik goes out of his way to help members with their game. Users who'll never give him any money for his time. The articles, videos. threads he has produced are literally worth thousands of dollars, it's not "common" information. Erik genuinely cares about helping golfers gets better. If he didn't then we wouldn't have the best instructional information of any golf website, Erik is a no BS guy and we have no desire to share any BS information.

 

If certain posts (myself included) come off rude or belittling, there may be a certain tone assumed when the poster didn't have that intent. This type of communication isn't perfect and mistakes happen. You also have to consider a few factors.   Sometimes we don't have a lot of time or are doing three things at once so we might only have time for a short, direct post. Sometimes it's a member that is intentionally obtuse and we are just tired of playing their games. Sometimes it's the 20th time that a point has been brought up (typical for that Jack vs Tiger thread). Sometimes people just don't like being told they're wrong.

 

So while no one is perfect, let's give Erik the benefit of the doubt and try to look at the bigger picture. 

post #13 of 102
We can all agree to disagree agreeably.. As long as it's agreed that I'm never wrong! In which case.. Go to hell ! But I mean that in the nicest possible condescending way with smiley faces and a 1 fingered salute!
Because Im a reasonable guy,... until you tell me I'm not!
post #14 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvmac View Post

Sometimes we don't have a lot of time or are doing three things at once so we might only have time for a short, direct post. Sometimes it's a member that is intentionally obtuse and we are just tired of playing their games. Sometimes it's the 20th time that a point has been brought up (typical for that Jack vs Tiger thread).

That all being true sometimes, it doesn't entirely change the fact that many of us, particularly of course me, can do a better job of realizing that while it may be the 200th time I've made a post like that, it's the first time someone else will see such a post like that.

For example "18 > 14"…

We - I - can do better. And I try to do better. I goof from time to time. I assume that people can read my sarcasm sometimes. I also tend to be the type of person who only really jokes with or teases someone they know and like at least a little bit. As a general rule, I like every member because we are all brothers in golf.
post #15 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunther View Post


Erik, look, I get the frustration but as the owner of this site, I find you to be one of it's snarkiest members. You continually belittle people (me once or twice but I'm a big boy and typically don't respond in kind). Your partner NEVER responds in this fashion.

I appreciate your efforts and you've helped me a time or two, which is great but I'd propose that you do as you so often admonish and keep the personal, albeit subtle, attacks to yourself. Or, stop the admonishments.

I'm prepared for the onslaught, go nuts but it's something I've noticed since long before I joined. Practice what you preach.

Hopefully you take this as constructive criticism.

@Gunther ,

 

I takes practice not to add tone to someone's post.  I am an emotional person (just ask my wife and friends!).  When I first got on the site, I would read tone into certain posts, especially some of the trolls that frequent the site.  When a troll or intentionally argumentative person responds in a thread with pointed language, it can add a negative tone to the whole thread.  Then as you read each post, you add that negativity to each response in your head.  The reality is most posts do not have a negative intention. They are just responses.

 

It took me a while to separate the words from my mental image of posts.  Example:  I have read many of your posts.  Your quoted post above could be read as very negative.  But I see it as more of constructive comment/question because I recognize that I cannot see your face or hear your voice.

 

I have met Erik.  He has on quite a few occasions disagreed with my posts.  At first, I would over react.  But I know that if I separate content from tone, and know the full history of the post, that it is just a concise response.

 

Many of the political-type threads do this.  If you go back and read the thread a while later, you can see how the imagined tone builds up like a snowball.

 

Hope this helps.

post #16 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

I concede, @turtleback, that there are more people incapable of more than very basic thinking than I had originally believe.

 

I was wrong, and you, @turtleback, were closer to correct in the sheer number of these types of people.

 

Congratulations to you. :beer: 

 

P.S. Did you read this, @turtleback?

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

At this point I've seen enough posts that reduce what I think is a complex question to the simple "18 > 14" that I owe @turtleback an apology: I was wrong about the number of people who simply compare two numbers (and sometimes, inexplicably to me, the number 19).

 

You were right, and I was wrong. A lot of people seem to reduce this to "18 > 14."

 

P.S. Did you read this, @turtleback?

 

P.P.S. Edited to hopefully be less snarky. I've probably failed, but I tried. :-)

 

 

At least you had the clarity to see that your prior wording was, to use your word, snarky. That wasn't the word that came to my mind, but you at least are taking a step in the right direction and that is a positive worth celebrating.

post #17 of 102

I'll admit it, I found Erik to be brusque and snarky when I first came here. I also thought he was a very generous person who gives free advice constantly in the swing threads. It was only after about a month or so of being here that I realized I was giving his posts a tone that wasn't accurate. As he's said, he can be very blunt and honest which can cause people to read that with an unintended attitude. If you ever get a chance to meet him in person you will see his demeanor is very different than what could be construed through his posts here.

post #18 of 102
Thread Starter 
As I mentioned, I appreciate Erik's contributions, it's a tremendous website and I am truly thankful for it.

I personally, have very thick skin. I embrace disagreement and I'm not afraid to come in on the anti side of an argument, minority or not. You may note that the only time I ever respond in this fashion is when I feel as though others have been attacked. When I've been belittled, and it's happened a few times, often I'll either concede my error or continue the argument in a hopefully gentlemanly way. My point in this paragraph is that it's not about me or my feelings being hurt, that simply doesn't happen.

Having said that, I reject your arguments that this wasn't a belittling post, of course it was.
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