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Thoughts on Ray Rice getting (only) a 2 game suspension - Page 4

post #55 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post
 

You agree to a deal where if you complete the program successfully the charge is reduced and you therefore are admitting to the lesser charge not the original one.

Not the way I understood it, but maybe the program isn't the same everywhere.

post #56 of 251

I wonder if the outrage towards the punishment Rice received from the NFL would be as great if it was Peyton Manning and not Rice.

post #57 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post
 

I wonder if the outrage towards the punishment Rice received from the NFL would be as great if it was Peyton Manning and not Rice.

 

Or Ben Roethlisberger. 4 games (down from 6) and no charges were ever actually pressed by anyone (IIRC).

post #58 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post

I wonder if the outrage towards the punishment Rice received from the NFL would be as great if it was Peyton Manning and not Rice.
I sincerely hope you aren't insinuating race as an issue in people's reaction.
post #59 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post
 

I wonder if the outrage towards the punishment Rice received from the NFL would be as great if it was Peyton Manning and not Rice.

 

Why wouldn't it be?

post #60 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremie Boop View Post


I sincerely hope you aren't insinuating race as an issue in people's reaction.

I'm not insinuating anything.  I'm simply asking if the players popularity, reputation and standing influences these decisions by the commish.

post #61 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post
 

I'm not insinuating anything.  I'm simply asking if the players popularity, reputation and standing influences these decisions by the commish.

 

If Peyton got two games from the same action, that would prove that it DIDN'T influence it...as Peyton is way more popular than Rice.

post #62 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post
 

I wonder if the outrage towards the punishment Rice received from the NFL would be as great if it was Peyton Manning and not Rice.

The outrage would probably be greater, but so would the defenders, simply because if this was Peyton Manning or Tom Brady, more people would (at least pretend) to care.  I guarantee you that my wife would hear about this somehow and form an opinion.  If I asked her right now what she thought about the Ray Rice thing, she'd probably answer something like "You mean that old football guy that played on your Big Break show last year?  What happened to him?"

 

So, my guess is that everything would just go up equally.  Outrage at suspension being too low, complaints of suspension being too high because there's no public evidence, and everything in between.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post
 

I'm not insinuating anything.  I'm simply asking if the players popularity, reputation and standing influences these decisions by the commish.

Actually, this is a different question.  Your first question asked if the outrage towards the punishment would change.  This one asks if we think the punishment would change.  The obvious answer is, I don't know.  I could try to put myself in Goodells and make a guess.  The only answer I come up with is that perhaps I'd use a much, much finer toothed comb when considering the case if it was somebody of the highest profile versus if it was a guy struggling to make the practice squad.  Obviously those are the extremes, and considering that Ray Rice is one of the premier running backs in the league, he is substantially closer to the Manning end of that scale than the scrub end.

 

So, I'm going to be super non-cynical here and say I don't think it would be any different.  (Expcet the above part about more public.)

post #63 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremie Boop View Post

I sincerely hope you aren't insinuating race as an issue in people's reaction.

Ofcourse it is! It totally is, and if this was Peyton Manning or Tom Brady I bet good money that the footage would never even have been released.

Look I dont have a dog in the fight, Im a Niner fan so I couldnt care less. But Im thinking this man was provoked, or even hit first. Shoot maybe he was hit first, second, AND third then he said enough. There is this study called the Conflict Tactics Survey which basically says women are FAR more violent than men in intimate relationships. It also says that women INITIATE far more violence in intimate relationships. The jacked up thing is that men absorb the punishment and thats supposed to be ok but when a man reaches his breaking point, we inflict more force or damage landing us in jail.
post #64 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonTheSavage View Post


Ofcourse it is! It totally is, and if this was Peyton Manning or Tom Brady I bet good money that the footage would never even have been released.

Look I dont have a dog in the fight, Im a Niner fan so I couldnt care less. But Im thinking this man was provoked, or even hit first. Shoot maybe he was hit first, second, AND third then he said enough. There is this study called the Conflict Tactics Survey which basically says women are FAR more violent than men in intimate relationships. It also says that women INITIATE far more violence in intimate relationships. The jacked up thing is that men absorb the punishment and thats supposed to be ok but when a man reaches his breaking point, we inflict more force or damage landing us in jail.

I disagree, I think ANY professional athlete or celebrity would be publicly blasted for this sort of thing. You're fooling yourself if you think otherwise. I can remember some stories of actors who left verbally abusive messages that went public.. I can see the other idea that perhaps a more prominent athlete would be expected to get a lesser penalty, but I don't see how anyone would get a lesser penalty than what this was.

post #65 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremie Boop View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonTheSavage View Post


Ofcourse it is! It totally is, and if this was Peyton Manning or Tom Brady I bet good money that the footage would never even have been released.

Look I dont have a dog in the fight, Im a Niner fan so I couldnt care less. But Im thinking this man was provoked, or even hit first. Shoot maybe he was hit first, second, AND third then he said enough. There is this study called the Conflict Tactics Survey which basically says women are FAR more violent than men in intimate relationships. It also says that women INITIATE far more violence in intimate relationships. The jacked up thing is that men absorb the punishment and thats supposed to be ok but when a man reaches his breaking point, we inflict more force or damage landing us in jail.

I disagree, I think ANY professional athlete or celebrity would be publicly blasted for this sort of thing. You're fooling yourself if you think otherwise. I can remember some stories of actors who left verbally abusive messages that went public.. I can see the other idea that perhaps a more prominent athlete would be expected to get a lesser penalty, but I don't see how anyone would get a lesser penalty than what this was.

 

Gotta agree. I don't see race playing a role here at all, and I'm more empathetic than most when it comes to that sort of thing. If this was Peyton Manning and he got just two games, I think everyone would be even more pissed about this. 

 

Also, there are almost no scenarios where it's okay to hit a woman, even when provoked. Obviously if she's trying to kill you then you have to defend yourself, but if she's hitting you repeatedly with her hands (similar to what Solange did) then I just take the beating like a man and try to calm things down with words or I get out of there until she cools off. 

 

This scene from Freaks of Geeks is a good example of how I would react to this sort of thing:

 

 

Also though, I just want to say to @RonTheSavage  that like @newtogolf, I fully respect your opinions, and I hope my post here doesn't come off as me telling you how you should feel or anything like that. I think we're having a good debate here, and I concede it's always good for me to hear viewpoints different from mine. I just feel I need to say this since it's the internet, and you guys can't hear my tone at all. I don't have a dog in this fight either. 

 

Much respect. I hope you guys know that. :-) 

post #66 of 251
Nothing but respect back at you man. I agree this is a good discussion and it's always interesting to see different points of view. I learn from you guys daily.
post #67 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonTheSavage View Post

Ofcourse it is! It totally is, and if this was Peyton Manning or Tom Brady I bet good money that the footage would never even have been released.

Look I dont have a dog in the fight, Im a Niner fan so I couldnt care less. But Im thinking this man was provoked, or even hit first. Shoot maybe he was hit first, second, AND third then he said enough. There is this study called the Conflict Tactics Survey which basically says women are FAR more violent than men in intimate relationships. It also says that women INITIATE far more violence in intimate relationships. The jacked up thing is that men absorb the punishment and thats supposed to be ok but when a man reaches his breaking point, we inflict more force or damage landing us in jail.
Not OK for the chick to initiate but more not OK for the dude to knock her out.

Full disclosure: Late 80's, I was in a relationship with an alcoholic. All was good 90% of the time (and she was smokin). When we went out she could not control her drink. She saw demons everywhere, constantly thought I was cheating, etc. Maybe 7 or 8 times she lit into me, fists flying. It was no fun but even drunk as I was in those situations, I never hit her back, let alone knock her out, and I always was able to subdue her or extricate myself. Took a few shots to the face for my troubles but never left a mark. Finally dumped her but damn, she was hot.

Anyway, I recount this story not for a pat on the back but to reinforce how wrong it is to KNOCK the chick OUT and how easy it is to subdue or otherwise extricate yourself. And I'm not as big a guy as Rice. I don't get the recent push by SAS, Whoopie and others to downplay this act.

There simply is no excuse for what Rice did, unless she pulled a knife or gun; the punishment was weak and I don't like the message it sends.
post #68 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunther View Post


Not OK for the chick to initiate but more not OK for the dude to knock her out.

Full disclosure: Late 80's, I was in a relationship with an alcoholic. All was good 90% of the time (and she was smokin). When we went out she could not control her drink. She saw demons everywhere, constantly thought I was cheating, etc. Maybe 7 or 8 times she lit into me, fists flying. It was no fun but even drunk as I was in those situations, I never hit her back, let alone knock her out, and I always was able to subdue her or extricate myself. Took a few shots to the face for my troubles but never left a mark. Finally dumped her but damn, she was hot.

Anyway, I recount this story not for a pat on the back but to reinforce how wrong it is to KNOCK the chick OUT and how easy it is to subdue or otherwise extricate yourself. And I'm not as big a guy as Rice. I don't get the recent push by SAS, Whoopie and others to downplay this act.

There simply is no excuse for what Rice did, unless she pulled a knife or gun; the punishment was weak and I don't like the message it sends.

My uncle was the victim of abuse for many years at the hands of his wife. She has many issues, not the least of which are psychological and substance abuse.  She's no small lady either. My mother has had to literally pull bits of gravel out of his face after the woman knocked him down in their driveway. He never did lay a hand on her in retaliation/defense. He finally had to move out of the house to avoid it. Sad thing is, they are still married and he still supports her financially even though they aren't together.

 

However, I do agree that the law sides with the woman by default and I have a story about that also. I knew a guy who's wife got him put in jail because she said he pulled a gun on her. He didn't, I knew the guy and he'd never do that, she even admitted later that he didn't. The cops believed her because there was a gun in the house and he had no way to prove that he didn't do it. So I totally get the idea that the law is pretty lopsided in how it views these cases, but I think it's because it was so rarely believed before and it resulted in the death of a lot of abused women. I don't think it's right, but they are taking the "better safe than sorry" approach.

post #69 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunther View Post


Not OK for the chick to initiate but more not OK for the dude to knock her out.

Full disclosure: Late 80's, I was in a relationship with an alcoholic. All was good 90% of the time (and she was smokin). When we went out she could not control her drink. She saw demons everywhere, constantly thought I was cheating, etc. Maybe 7 or 8 times she lit into me, fists flying. It was no fun but even drunk as I was in those situations, I never hit her back, let alone knock her out, and I always was able to subdue her or extricate myself. Took a few shots to the face for my troubles but never left a mark. Finally dumped her but damn, she was hot.

Anyway, I recount this story not for a pat on the back but to reinforce how wrong it is to KNOCK the chick OUT and how easy it is to subdue or otherwise extricate yourself. And I'm not as big a guy as Rice. I don't get the recent push by SAS, Whoopie and others to downplay this act.

There simply is no excuse for what Rice did, unless she pulled a knife or gun; the punishment was weak and I don't like the message it sends.

I wish we could see this supposed footage in the elevator so we would know what we are discussing here.  Here are key factors that need to be known before we just destroy this guy for being a wife beater;

  • How drunk and conscious was she before the "incident"?
  • What led to her being unconscious, a push that caused her to hit her head or a punch to the head / face?  Was she hit multiples times?  A punch to the face would likely lead to some bruise or cut, where is it?
  • What did she do to instigate Rice into "hitting her".

 

I have little tolerance for men that hit defenseless women but let's not portray all women as being meek, weak and unable to do any physical harm.  In my days as a bouncer at clubs I found women to be some of the nastiest fighters of all, hair pulling, eye gouging, biting, bottle / shoe throwing demons who seem to have no concerns for the harm they do to others when enraged.   I also know some girls / women that train MMA and they are more than capable of doing damage to a guy.

post #70 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonTheSavage View Post


Ofcourse it is! It totally is, and if this was Peyton Manning or Tom Brady I bet good money that the footage would never even have been released.

Look I dont have a dog in the fight, Im a Niner fan so I couldnt care less. But Im thinking this man was provoked, or even hit first. Shoot maybe he was hit first, second, AND third then he said enough. There is this study called the Conflict Tactics Survey which basically says women are FAR more violent than men in intimate relationships. It also says that women INITIATE far more violence in intimate relationships. The jacked up thing is that men absorb the punishment and thats supposed to be ok but when a man reaches his breaking point, we inflict more force or damage landing us in jail.

 

That is absolutely false. Nothing was hidden or withheld when Ben was out raping women.

 

And provoked or not...there's no excuse for a professional male athlete of 200+ lbs to knock out his woman. Period. I've been attacked by a woman before...I just restrained them and they couldn't do anything. And I'm no Ray Rice...

post #71 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post

I wish we could see this supposed footage in the elevator so we would know what we are discussing here.  Here are key factors that need to be known before we just destroy this guy for being a wife beater;
  • How drunk and conscious was she before the "incident"?
  • What led to her being unconscious, a push that caused her to hit her head or a punch to the head / face?  Was she hit multiples times?  A punch to the face would likely lead to some bruise or cut, where is it?
  • What did she do to instigate Rice into "hitting her".

I have little tolerance for men that hit defenseless women but let's not portray all women as being meek, weak and unable to do any physical harm.  In my days as a bouncer at clubs I found women to be some of the nastiest fighters of all, hair pulling, eye gouging, biting, bottle / shoe throwing demons who seem to have no concerns for the harm they do to others when enraged.   I also know some girls / women that train MMA and they are more than capable of doing damage to a guy.
We're not talking about Rhonda Rousey here. I've heard that this girl was tiny, like 5' or something.

It's a good point though, to consider if she was knocked out from a push. I'd have a different feeling about it entirely. I've just envisioned this giant guy throwing a punch into this little girl's face and it makes me cringe.
post #72 of 251

"let's not portray all women as being meek, weak and unable to do any physical harm."

 

I've seen her...I've seen Ray Rice. In comparison, she's meek, weak, and unable to do any physical harm to him.

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