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The Official (Not Official At All) Drugs & Alcohol Thread - Page 16

post #271 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grndslmhttr3 View Post
 

They're right there for you to read; I was half-expecting you to actually read them since you asked me to post some. They are peer-reviewed studies that have been published in medical journals. A healthy person has other reasons to take acid, I would guess.

For stuff like LSD or mushrooms the toxicity is extremely low, especially compared to other drugs. They're not addictive and have a low potential for abuse. Why is getting high automatically a bad thing?

Because it's probably the poorest most selfish excuse I can think of to legalize drugs. So you or anyone else can get high regardless of the other lives that are destroyed. 

post #272 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by jusanothajoe View Post
 

Because it's probably the poorest most selfish excuse I can think of to legalize drugs. So you or anyone else can get high regardless of the other lives that are destroyed. 

I don't think drugs like crack or heroin or anything that has such a high potential for abuse should be legalized; they can and often do have devastating effects to the user and those close to the user. Mushrooms and LSD aren't destroying any lives and are difficult to abuse. Alcohol is one of the most destructive drugs there is and yet there's still more of a stigma with smoking pot than there is with getting drunk. Why is that?

post #273 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abu3baid View Post


I don't think you can educate people more than what has already been done! I would still rather not have heroin sold at the CVS pharmacy.. Like I mentioned statistics say that oxi is abused and that is legal and controlled via prescription, what will happen when heroine is available (the best and purist kind of course) and all you need is to be 21 to buy it?

What education? 

 

Some commercials on television?

 

 

Society must weigh the benefits and costs in an open manner and develop a program.

 

What have other countries done, and what have they legalized?

 

Find out.

 

Spend billions, put a few million in prison,

 

or face reality, and change a losing strategy.

post #274 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grndslmhttr3 View Post
 

I don't think drugs like crack or heroin or anything that has such a high potential for abuse should be legalized; they can and often do have devastating effects to the user and those close to the user. Mushrooms and LSD aren't destroying any lives and are difficult to abuse. Alcohol is one of the most destructive drugs there is and yet there's still more of a stigma with smoking pot than there is with getting drunk. Why is that?

You don't think drugs like crack or heroin should be legalized but there are alot of people that are for legalizing ALL drugs. They do not keep bringing up the war on pot. The answer to your question is alcohol is legal pot is not. Doesn't mean alcohol is a good thing. As I said I choose not to drink, just not for me. I have smoked pot in my younger days, it wasn't for me either. LSD is a wildly mind altering drug, mushrooms should be sauteed to eat with your steak. ;-)

post #275 of 386
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grndslmhttr3 View Post
 

LSD and mushrooms aren't addictive, and there have been many studies done on LSD that suggest positive effects to mental health.

 

 

I don't really want to dwell on this too much, but I want to bring your attention to the above bold part.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grndslmhttr3 View Post
 

They're right there for you to read; I was half-expecting you to actually read them since you asked me to post some. They are peer-reviewed studies that have been published in medical journals. A healthy person has other reasons to take acid, I would guess.

 

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0063972

 

Quote:
 

Conclusion

We did not find use of psychedelics to be an independent risk factor for mental health problems.

 

I'm sorry but there is a difference between the above conclusion and your statement.. I don't think I need to explain the difference.

 

http://jop.sagepub.com/content/26/7/994

Nothing really worth mentioning from this site to hint that there are "mental health benefits" to using LSD as you stated

 

http://www.maps.org/research/lsd/Gasser-2014-JMND-4March14.pdf

Quote:
 These results indicate
that when administered safely in a methodologically rigorous medically supervised
psychotherapeutic setting, LSD can reduce anxiety, suggesting that
larger controlled studies are warranted.

I really hope that you didn't draw your conclusion from the above.. I mean look at what they say.. "When administered safely in a methodologically rigorous medically supervised psychotherapeutic setting"... it can reduce anxiety.. then they continue with... "suggesting that larger controlled studies are warranted." 

I mean seriously.. How the conclusion was drawn from the above three to equal "mental health benefits" is beyond me.. 

That is why I asked my question.. list me the 3 top mental health benefit.. i.e. helping in alcoholism is hardly a mental health benefit.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond View Post
 

What education? 

 

Some commercials on television?

 

 

Society must weigh the benefits and costs in an open manner and develop a program.

 

What have other countries done, and what have they legalized?

 

Find out.

 

Spend billions, put a few million in prison,

 

or face reality, and change a losing strategy.

 

From the first day I entered the American education system when I was in 6th grade I have had plenty of education on the destructive nature of drugs and their adverse affects on the human body and brain.. the picture of what cocaine does to a brain is still ingrained in my head..

 

The number of countries in the world that have legalized cocaine are insignificant.. even a very laid back country like the Netherlands (they allow hash and pot and prostitution openly) ban cocaine!

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grndslmhttr3 View Post
 

I don't think drugs like crack or heroin or anything that has such a high potential for abuse should be legalized; they can and often do have devastating effects to the user and those close to the user. Mushrooms and LSD aren't destroying any lives and are difficult to abuse. Alcohol is one of the most destructive drugs there is and yet there's still more of a stigma with smoking pot than there is with getting drunk. Why is that?

 

Your stance is different than others though that have said that they want all drugs legalized and taxed with no exception.. Alcohol is a killer period, it alters the way people think while they are drunk and makes them do stupid things, how it is legal I will never know.. hence they tried to abolish it a long time ago!

post #276 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abu3baid View Post


I don't think you can educate people more than what has already been done! I would still rather not have heroin sold at the CVS pharmacy.. Like I mentioned statistics say that oxi is abused and that is legal and controlled via prescription, what will happen when heroine is available (the best and purist kind of course) and all you need is to be 21 to buy it?

Something just as addictive and debilitating as heroin is already being sold at CVS, it's called Oxycodone.  Various opiate prescriptions are available at CVS as are steroids.  Legalization doesn't mean it's out there on the aisle, you would require a prescription just like you do today for Oxycodone, methadone and marijuana (where already legalized).

 

Sadly what prevents heroin from being legalized as Oxycodone is that there's plenty of supply of heroin and pharmaceutical companies can't make a profit on it.  Pharmaceutical company's pay a ton of money to lobbyist organizations, have a major influence on the FDA and what gets legalized and what doesn't.


Edited by newtogolf - 8/9/14 at 12:52pm
post #277 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abu3baid View Post
 

I don't really want to dwell on this too much, but I want to bring your attention to the above bold part.

 

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0063972

 

 

I'm sorry but there is a difference between the above conclusion and your statement.. I don't think I need to explain the difference.

Results

21,967 respondents (13.4% weighted) reported lifetime psychedelic use. There were no significant associations between lifetime use of any psychedelics, lifetime use of specific psychedelics (LSD, psilocybin, mescaline, peyote), or past year use of LSD and increased rate of any of the mental health outcomes. Rather, in several cases psychedelic use was associated with lower rate of mental health problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abu3baid View Post
 

helping in alcoholism is hardly a mental health benefit.

I would argue quite the contrary.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abu3baid View Post
 

I really hope that you didn't draw your conclusion from the above.. I mean look at what they say.. "When administered safely in a methodologically rigorous medically supervised psychotherapeutic setting"... it can reduce anxiety.. then they continue with... "suggesting that larger controlled studies are warranted."

Studies like this need to be in controlled environments to be effective, and with that study, it was to test the mental effects on people who are terminally ill, so they were under medical supervision to begin with. When the article states that larger controlled studies are warranted, the authors are implying that the test showed signs of promise and that the subject should be further studied.

post #278 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grndslmhttr3 View Post
 

Results

21,967 respondents (13.4% weighted) reported lifetime psychedelic use. There were no significant associations between lifetime use of any psychedelics, lifetime use of specific psychedelics (LSD, psilocybin, mescaline, peyote), or past year use of LSD and increased rate of any of the mental health outcomes. Rather, in several cases psychedelic use was associated with lower rate of mental health problems.

 

21,967 lifetime psychedelic users.. and several cases associated with lower rate of mental health problems is hardly a "Mental health benefit".. 

 

You are also kind of forgot to comment or just chose to ignore the studies conclusion which is "We did not find use of psychedelics to be an independent risk factor for mental health problems."..  The fact that their conclusion is that they didn't find psychedelics to be independent risk factor for mental health problems is not the same as finding the use of it provides a "Mental health benefit"..   

 

You have not listed for me any mental health benefits even if I concede that it has positive effects on drunks.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grndslmhttr3 View Post
 

Studies like this need to be in controlled environments to be effective, and with that study, it was to test the mental effects on people who are terminally ill, so they were under medical supervision to begin with. When the article states that larger controlled studies are warranted, the authors are implying that the test showed signs of promise and that the subject should be further studied.

 

 

Yes.. The subject should be studied to see if LSD can reduce anxiety??  

 

I don't think I have to remind you that you mentioned that there were many studies that show that there is a "Mental health benefit" from LSD and Mushroom use.  These guys say that they need further studies to show that LSD can reduce anxiety.. 

 

Why not just concede the fact that there aren't many studies that show that there is a "Mental Health Benefit" of using LSD?  It would have been a better argument if you said that there "are" studies that show that there aren't any long term "Mental Health Problems" from the extended use of LSD.. 

 

The two things are completely different.. The first proves the second, the second doesn't prove the first.  The lack of something doesn't always mean the existence of the other!\

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post
 

Something just as addictive and debilitating as heroin is already being sold at CVS, it's called Oxycodone.  Various opiate prescriptions are available at CVS as are steroids.  Legalization doesn't mean it's out there on the aisle, you would require a prescription just like you do today for Oxycodone, methadone and marijuana (where already legalized).

 

Sadly what prevents heroin from being legalized as Oxycodone is that there's plenty of supply of heroin and pharmaceutical companies can't make a profit on it.  Pharmaceutical company's pay a ton of money to lobbyist organizations, have a major influence on the FDA and what gets legalized and what doesn't.

 

I don't really want to get into the influence of Pharma companies on the FDA.. Pharma companies would be the first in line to make a huge profit if Heroin was legalized as they would be the only trusted source for this destructive drug.. Let us be serious though, when we talk about legalizing heroin and cocaine we are not talking about it being available via prescription.. What kind of stupid doctor would ever write a prescription for a recreational drug like cocaine/heroine/crack?? 

 

What I am trying to say is if there is such a problem with Oxy and it is legal via prescription, then what will the situation be when you legalize Heroine and have it available for people starting at a certain age.. 21 or what ever it is they decide?

post #279 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abu3baid View Post
 

 

You have not listed for me any mental health benefits

I did; you simply ignored them or brushed them off as not being "good enough." I suppose I should've just scratched the "mental" part of the benefits since there are other potential benefits as well that are more physical than mental. A lot of these studies/tests were done several decades ago when LSD was still legal; there aren't as many done now.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lsd#Potential_uses

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychedelic_therapy

post #280 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grndslmhttr3 View Post

I did; you simply ignored them or brushed them off as not being "good enough." I suppose I should've just scratched the "mental" part of the benefits since there are other potential benefits as well that are more physical than mental. A lot of these studies/tests were done several decades ago when LSD was still legal; there aren't as many done now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lsd#Potential_uses
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychedelic_therapy

I'm sorry the only ones you mentioned are

Reduce anxiety - more testing needed to prove this

Help drunks... Maybe


Did you mentioned anything else I might have missed?

I also went through both sites you are listed and I am struggling to find this physical and non physical health advantages of using acid..

I have to admit I liked the part where they said the military wanted to use acid to control people's minds! ;)
post #281 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abu3baid View Post
 

 

21,967 lifetime psychedelic users.. and several cases associated with lower rate of mental health problems is hardly a "Mental health benefit".. 

 

You are also kind of forgot to comment or just chose to ignore the studies conclusion which is "We did not find use of psychedelics to be an independent risk factor for mental health problems."..  The fact that their conclusion is that they didn't find psychedelics to be independent risk factor for mental health problems is not the same as finding the use of it provides a "Mental health benefit"..   

 

You have not listed for me any mental health benefits even if I concede that it has positive effects on drunks.

 

 

Yes.. The subject should be studied to see if LSD can reduce anxiety??  

 

I don't think I have to remind you that you mentioned that there were many studies that show that there is a "Mental health benefit" from LSD and Mushroom use.  These guys say that they need further studies to show that LSD can reduce anxiety.. 

 

Why not just concede the fact that there aren't many studies that show that there is a "Mental Health Benefit" of using LSD?  It would have been a better argument if you said that there "are" studies that show that there aren't any long term "Mental Health Problems" from the extended use of LSD.. 

 

The two things are completely different.. The first proves the second, the second doesn't prove the first.  The lack of something doesn't always mean the existence of the other!\

 

 

 

I don't really want to get into the influence of Pharma companies on the FDA.. Pharma companies would be the first in line to make a huge profit if Heroin was legalized as they would be the only trusted source for this destructive drug.. Let us be serious though, when we talk about legalizing heroin and cocaine we are not talking about it being available via prescription.. What kind of stupid doctor would ever write a prescription for a recreational drug like cocaine/heroine/crack?? 

 

What I am trying to say is if there is such a problem with Oxy and it is legal via prescription, then what will the situation be when you legalize Heroine and have it available for people starting at a certain age.. 21 or what ever it is they decide?

Ding ! Ding ! Ding ! We have a winner !!!!

post #282 of 386

Prohibitionism is illogical on many levels.  Why not outlaw red meat?  Force a mandatory diet?  After all, unhealthy lifestyles lead to increased medical costs, thus affecting everybody's insurance premiums and total costs of medicare, medicaid, and CHIP programs.

 

Paternalism, perhaps the most annoying trait of finger waving adults.

post #283 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aguirre View Post
 

Prohibitionism is illogical on many levels.  Why not outlaw red meat?  Force a mandatory diet?  After all, unhealthy lifestyles lead to increased medical costs, thus affecting everybody's insurance premiums and total costs of medicare, medicaid, and CHIP programs.

 

Paternalism, perhaps the most annoying trait of finger waving adults.

 

You're equating red meat to heroin and cocaine?

post #284 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

You're equating red meat to heroin and cocaine?

 

I'm equating--properly, I might add--the ethical rationale used by prohibitionists.

post #285 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

You're equating red meat to heroin and cocaine?
Murder, more likely. a1_smile.gif
post #286 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aguirre View Post
 

I'm equating--properly, I might add--the ethical rationale used by prohibitionists.

 

I disagree that you're doing so "properly."

 

When someone resorts to examples like "red meat = cocaine" or something, they've lost. Even if the other side started it, in which case both sides have lost. The plot. The point. Their logical arguments. Whatever.

post #287 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

I disagree that you're doing so "properly."

 

When someone resorts to examples like "red meat = cocaine" or something, they've lost. Even if the other side started it, in which case both sides have lost. The plot. The point. Their logical arguments. Whatever.

 

Your mistake is that you're looking the substances and assuming that's what I'm comparing.  I'm talking about the logical slippery slope of prohibitionist thinking.  Substance A ingested by individual x should be outlawed because of various societal costs.

 

If you want to disagree, what you should do is take a consequential position on the direct effects of the various substances being described.  However, that isn't a counter to my argument, which is saying such a discussion should not even exist with regards to the law.

post #288 of 386

I wanted to see what other countries are doing... have no idea as to these sources, Just did a quick google search. Portugal seems to be the pioneer.

 

But they still have limits on the amount one can possess...

 

From 7.13.11

 

 

http://www.thefix.com/content/decrim-nation-portugal-ten-years-later

Ten Years Ago Portugal Decriminalized All Drugs. What Happened Next?

When the drug-drenched nation legalized all drugs within its borders, most critics predicted disaster. Instead drug use has plunged dramatically.

Drug related deaths fell by 50%
Photo via thinkstockphotos

The government in Portugal has no plans to back down. Although the Netherlands is the European country most associated with liberal drug laws, it has already been ten years since Portugal became the first European nation to take the brave step of decriminalizing possession of all drugs within its borders—from marijuana to heroin, and everything in between. This controversial move went into effect in June of 2001, in response to the country’s spiraling HIV/AIDS statistics. While many critics in the poor and largely conservative country attacked the sea change in drug policy, fearing it would lead to drug tourism while simultaneously worsening the country’s already shockingly high rate of hard drug use, a report published in 2009 by the Cato Institute tells a different story. Glenn Greenwald, the attorney and author who conducted the research, told Time: “Judging by every metric, drug decriminalization in Portugal has been a resounding success. It has enabled the Portuguese government to manage and control the drug problem far better than virtually every other Western country."

Back in 2001, Portugal had the highest rate of HIV among injecting drug users in the European Union—an incredible 2,000 new cases a year, in a country with a population of just 10 million. Despite the predictable controversy the move stirred up at home and abroad, the Portuguese government felt there was no other way they could effectively quell this ballooning problem. While here in the U.S. calls for full drug decriminalization are still dismissed as something of a fringe concern, the Portuguese decided to do it, and have been quietly getting on with it now for a decade. Surprisingly, most credible reports appear to show that decriminalization has been a staggering success. 

The DEA sees it a bit differently. Portugal, they say, was a disaster, with heroin and HIV rates out of control. "Portugal's addict population and the problems that go along with addiction continue to increase," the DEA maintains. "In an effort to reduce the number of addicts in the prison system, the Portuguese government has an enacted some radical policies in the last few years with the eventual decriminalization of all illicit drugs in July of 2001."

However, as Greenwald concludes: "By freeing its citizens from the fear of prosecution and imprisonment for drug usage, Portugal has dramatically improved its ability to encourage drug addicts to avail themselves of treatment. The resources that were previously devoted to prosecuting and imprisoning drug addicts are now available to provide treatment programs to addicts." Under the perfect system, treatment would also be voluntary, but as an alternative to jail, mandatory treatment save money. But for now, "the majority of EU states have rates that are double and triple the rate for post-decriminalization Portugal," Greenwald says.

For those looking for clues about how the U.S. government can tackle its domestic drug problem, the figures are enticing. Following decriminalization, Portugal eventually found itself with the lowest rates of marijuana usage in people over 15 in the EU: about 10%. Compare this to the 40% of people over 12 who regularly smoke pot in the U.S., a country with some of the most punitive drugs laws in the developed world. Drug use of all kinds has declined in Portugal: Lifetime use among seventh to ninth graders fell from 14.01% to 10.6%.  Lifetime heroin use among 16-18 year olds fell from 2.5% to 1.8%.  And what about those horrific HIV infection rates that prompted the move in the first place? HIV infection rates among drug users fell by an incredible 17%, while drug related deaths were reduced by more than half. "There is no doubt that the phenomenon of addiction is in decline in Portugal," said Joao Goulao, President of the Institute of Drugs and Drugs Addiction, at a press conference to mark the 10th anniversary of the law.

We’re not holding our breath that the Portuguese example will lead to any kind of abrupt about-face in America's own drug war, which is still sputtering steadily along at a cost of trillions a year. However, with the medical marijuana movement so far refusing to be strangled out of existence by the DEA, Senators Jim Webb and Arlen Specter recently made a proposal to create a blue ribbon commission to look at prison and drug sentencing reform. And for any pro-legalization presidential hopefuls in 2012, the movement for a common sense drug policy in the United States may be finally moving into the mainstream.

______
 
From 2013:
 
 
 

The logical extension of this statement is that people who are not criminals should not be treated as criminals. They should not be arrested, put on trial or thrown in jail. The punishment for drug possession in Portugal prior to decriminalization was up to a year in prison.

 

The Portuguese experiment has been in action since Law 30/2000 went into effect nearly 12 years ago, and Goulão's staff is currently calculating how much money the country's judicial system has saved, in its courts and prisons, now that it no longer has to process individuals the police catch with a few grams of drugs.

 

"The police still search people for drugs," Goulão points out. Hashish, cocaine, ecstasy -- Portuguese police still seize and destroy all these substances.

 

Before doing so, though, they first weigh the drugs and consult the official table with the list of 10-day limits. Anyone possessing drugs in excess of these amounts is treated as a dealer and charged in court. Anyone with less than the limit is told to report to a body known as a "warning commission on drug addiction" within the next 72 hours.

 

The Second Time Brings Consequences

In Lisbon, for example, the local drug addiction commission is housed on the first floor of an unremarkable office building. The idea is that no one should feel uncomfortable about being seen here. A 19-year-old in a white polo shirt waits in one room. Police caught him over the weekend with about a gram of hashish. A social worker has already questioned him for half an hour and learned that he attended vocational training at an agricultural school, lives with his parents and smokes pot now and then. This was the first time he was caught in possession of drugs.

"Social user, no risk factors present," the social worker notes.

Next, a psychologist and a lawyer speak to the young man. They want to know if he's aware of the dangers of cannabis.

"Yeah, yeah, from school," he says. "We had a class on prevention."

As long as he isn't caught again within the next three months, his case will be closed. "We won't inform anyone that you were here and this won't go on your record," the lawyer explains. "But if it happens a second time, there are serious consequences."

But later, asked to explain these consequences in more detail, nothing comes to her mind that sounds particularly serious. A couple days of community service, perhaps. The commission can also impose fines, but the lawyer says it doesn't like to do so for teenagers. The fines are likewise not intended for people the commission determines to be addicts -- they're already paying to maintain their habit. "Our most important duty is to invite people to participate in rehab," she explains. Lisbon police send around 1,500 people to the commission each year, which averages out to less than five a day. Seventy percent of these cases concern marijuana. Those who fail to turn up receive a couple of reminders, but coercion is not an intended part of this system.

Decriminalization, Not Legalization

Warnings, reminders and invitations to rehab -- it seems Portugal's war on drugs is a gentle one. "Humanistic and pragmatic" is how João Goulão describes the new program. It is based on decriminalization, which should not be confused with legalization. Portugal considered that path too, but ultimately decided not to take things quite that far.

When Portugal's parliament was debating the proposed Law 30/2000, representatives of right-wing parties declared that planes would start arriving in the country daily, full of people looking for an easy opportunity to pump themselves full of drugs. Our entire country will become a drug-ridden slum, these parties said. The left-wing parties in parliament held a majority, though.

Goulão sits in his office and pages through charts, tables and graphs that are just some of the great quantity of data his team has collected over the years.

The data show, among other things, that the number of adults in Portugal who have at some point taken illegal drugs is rising. At the same time, though, the number of teenagers who have at some point taken illegal drugs is falling. The number of drug addicts who have undergone rehab has also increased dramatically, while the number of drug addicts who have become infected with HIV has fallen significantly. What, though, do these numbers mean? With what exactly can they be compared? There isn't a great deal of data from before the experiment began. And, for example, the number of adults who have tried illegal drugs at some point in their lives is increasing in most other countries throughout Europe as well.

Running Out of Money

"We haven't found some miracle cure," Goulão says. Still, taking stock after nearly 12 years, his conclusion is, "Decriminalization hasn't made the problem worse."

At the moment, Goulão's greatest concern is the Portuguese government's austerity policies in the wake of the euro crisis. Decriminalization is pointless, he says, without being accompanied by prevention programs, drug clinics and social work conducted directly on the streets. Before the euro crisis, Portugal spent €75 million ($98 million) annually on its anti-drug programs. So far, Goulão has only seen a couple million cut from his programs, but if the crisis in the country grows worse, at some point there may no longer be enough money.

It is simply by chance that the European Monitoring Center for Drugs and Drug Addiction (EMCDDA) has its headquarters in Lisbon. Frank Zobel works here, analyzing various approaches to combating drugs, and he says he can observe "the greatest innovation in this field" right outside his office door.

No drug policy, Zobel says, can genuinely prevent people from taking drugs -- at least, he is not familiar with any model that works this way. As for Portugal, Zobel says, "This is working. Drug consumption has not increased severely. There is no mass chaos. For me as an evaluator, that's a very good outcome."

 
 
 
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