or Connect
TheSandTrap.com › Golf Forum › The 19th Hole › The Grill Room › The Official (Not Official At All) Drugs & Alcohol Thread
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

The Official (Not Official At All) Drugs & Alcohol Thread - Page 4

post #55 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by zipazoid View Post
 

 

Care to cite a medical journal on that? Or are you making up a 'usual association' of a disease to make a point that flies in the face of a mountain of medical evidence?

 

Hey, people who eat a lot of sweets can get diabetes. Smokers can get lung cancer. Guess you would have no sympathy for them either?

No sympathy for anyone who has cancer from smoking who started smoking post about 1960 when everyone really did know that it caused cancer.

No sympathy with those with diabetes caused by deliberate diet choices after they were given the warnings in time to do something about it.

No sympathy for obese people in mobility scooters who ignored every warning and chose to eat crap beyond an age where it was forced down their throats by stupid parents.

No sympathy for anyone who made a lifestyle choice which affects them and their loved ones.

 

Huge sympathy for those indirectly and directly affected by selfish, arrogant, criminal behaviour leading to what is popularly, and in cases even correctly classified as a "disease". Their widows, their children, their parents, relatives forced to ruin their own lives by becoming carers, etc.

post #56 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by zipazoid View Post
 

 

Which is also irrelevant as to how he 'caught' it. He has it. That's the point. And it can be treated if he so chooses to do so.

 

Again, personal opinions as to the level of sympathy someone has for an addict, are just that. Opinions.

Calling it a disease is more likely to garner sympathy versus something that is self inflicted.  Even WebMD makes a distinction that it's not a disease in a traditional sense given the disease occurs over time after frequent voluntary use.

 

Quote:
Drug addiction is a chronic, often relapsing brain disease that causes compulsive drug seeking and use, despite harmful consequences to the drug addict and those around them. Drug addiction is a brain disease because the abuse of drugs leads to changes in the structure and function of the brain. Although it is true that for most people the initial decision to take drugs is voluntary, over time the changes in the brain caused by repeated drug abuse can affect a person's self-control and ability to make sound decisions, and at the same time create an intense impulse to take drugs.

If you find comfort in calling it a disease, do so, but it warrants a distinction compared to someone that is infected by a disease without their knowledge.

post #57 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post
 

If you find comfort in calling it a disease, do so, but it warrants a distinction compared to someone that is infected by a disease without their knowledge.

 

And if you find comfort in calling it something else, you do so as well. Even though that WebMD c&p pretty much confirmed it is a disease. Some do not want to level sympathy on those who have it, which again, does not make it not a disease. 

 

Let's set aside the term 'disease' since that seems to rub some people the wrong way. Can we agree that DJ is sick and needs help...or is that too far of a bridge for some to cross as well?

post #58 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by zipazoid View Post
 

 

And if you find comfort in calling it something else, you do so as well. Even though that WebMD c&p pretty much confirmed it is a disease. Some do not want to level sympathy on those who have it, which again, does not make it not a disease. 

 

Let's set aside the term 'disease' since that seems to rub some people the wrong way. Can we agree that DJ is sick and needs help...or is that too far of a bridge for some to cross as well?

I am okay with calling it a disease as long as we can agree that it was self inflicted and a result of poor life choices that he needs to be held personally accountable for.  It's sad a guy with that much talent is wasting it on highly addictive drugs so in that sense I do feel sympathetic but it's not in the same way I'd feel it for a child that is battling cancer.

post #59 of 386

I guess my point is, it doesn't really matter what you're "okay with" calling it. Call it a Purple Flying Panda if you want. 

 

Let's take alcohol. How many on this forum has ever ingested alcohol? My guess would be an extremely high percentage. How many of those who ingested it became addicted to it? Much much lower percentage. 

 

So, using your logic, an alcoholic became one due to 'self infliction,' right? Well how come the vast majority of those same people who self-inflicted didn't become addicted? 

 

Therein lies the disease. Why do some ingest alcohol safely while others don't? Weak constitution? Inability to know when to say when?

 

Or is it as the WebMD post stated, that alcohol affects some people's mind differently? That's what the medical community thinks. Some can just have a couple & be done. Others can't. And it's not because they're party animals...it's because they're wired differently...a mental disorder.

 

Now we go to cocaine. What's the difference? That it's illegal? Okay, yes, it is. But what difference does that make? Believe it or not, there are some cocaine users who are not addicts, much like the social drinker. It's the same mental disorder whether it's alcohol, cocaine, heroin or whatever that separates the casual drinker/user from the addict. 

 

So yes, okay. DJ is guilty of a bad decision. But he is not guilty of not knowing where that decision would take him, if he had no idea that he had an addictive brain chemistry. And whether that garners sympathy of others is totally, completely irrelevant.


Edited by zipazoid - 8/3/14 at 5:22pm
post #60 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post

I am okay with calling it a disease as long as we can agree that it was self inflicted and a result of poor life choices that he needs to be held personally accountable for.  It's sad a guy with that much talent is wasting it on highly addictive drugs so in that sense I do feel sympathetic but it's not in the same way I'd feel it for a child that is battling cancer.

What's the practical difference? Just so we can all feel better about ourselves?
post #61 of 386

A little more insight into addiction. And I preface this with having personal experience with it -

 

Addicts aren't stupid people. They know the pain they have caused themselves, their loved ones, their employers, etc. They're not sociopaths. They just cannot stop. I mean, think about it for a second - why would someone knowingly snort coke when they know they've already had consequences from it - when they know it's going to hurt so many people, including themselves?

 

It's insanity. Addicts are not sane. That's why it is called a mental illness.

 

Now. The whole idea of calling it a disease. If laypeople don't want to acknowledge it as such, as I have said, that's irrelevant. It's vital to the addict to understand that it is. Why? Simple - so that they know they are not bad people trying to be good, but sick people trying to get well. They're wracked with guilt. They truly believe they're bad, immoral people. But when someone says, no, you're not. You're sick. That changes the addict's perspective totally. And realizing that they are sick and are shown how to get well, makes all the difference in the world. 

 

Before 1935, know what they did with alcoholics? Locked them up. They didn't know what to do with them, because it was not yet understood as a disease. Once that concept/theory was introduced, everything changed. Their lives went from hopeless to hopeful. And millions recovered.

 

So again, at the point of ridiculous redundancy, what the non-addict world calls it or how they view addicts is entirely meaningless. The only one who has to acknowledge it as a disease is the addict. That's the only one that matters.

 

Now, those loved ones who were so hurt by the addicts drug use? Part of the recovery process is to make amends to them. To right the wrongs.

 

Recovery is truly a beautiful thing. And I do hope DJ embraces his. He can come out of this as an unstoppable force on the tour if he does.

post #62 of 386
If you look at the "symptoms" of alcoholism it is laughable in my opinion.. Calling it a disease actually is a way to remove the stigma of being called a drunk! A way to make people feel better about going to treatment of the disease (group meeting to talk about their disease) because how many would agree to go to a meeting for being a drunk? Not many, but going for treatment for a disease is much more accepted by the drunk, by the courts and most importantly by the AA organizers in terms of insurance covering the "treatment"!

An alcoholic, someone who is a known as an alcoholic with this diseases goes off and drinks and finally drives and kills a pedestrian crossing the side walk.. Obviously he was drunk, because he had a disease and someone with this disease can't control them selves.. He is then prosecuted for killing someone, so he argues you can't prosecute me.. I have a medically documented disease and I'm in AA and I can't control my self.. The judge says, but you killed someone.. The drunk answers.. I can't make rational decisions while I'm drunk, how can you prosecute me for having this terrible disease?

So, with the argument not accepted in court he is thrown in the slammer like the rest of the criminals.. A true "mentally ill" person who kills someone pleads insanity and is then sent to a mental institute for a specific time and then released.. Unlike the drunk where pleading insanity will just get him laughed out of court and right into the slammer! Big difference!

I think people call it a disease to make them selves feel better, and I don't call it a disease because it is a choice، the only disease this drunk that killed that child is stupidity!
post #63 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by turtleback View Post
 

I can respect, while disagreeing with, people who take the addiction is a disease position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zipazoid View Post
 

 

As I stated in an earlier post, you (or anyone) disagreeing that addiction is a disease doesn't make it not a disease. It's pretty much a proven fact. It has symptoms, manifestations, progression & treatment. 

Agree.

 

I don't really care enough to get into with some people, but just thought I'd point one thing out to those like @turtleback who think some of us are of the opinion that alcoholism is a disease.  That is not my opinion, and in fact, I don't even have an opinion on the subject.  I am fortunate enough to not know a lot of people with alcohol issues, so I know very little about it.  But what I do know is that when I do an internet search, I get a return that tells me that the American Medical Association classifies alcoholism as a disease.

 

I consider myself smart enough to know that I don't know a lot of things, and medicine is one of those things, so I will go ahead and defer to people who do know.  That is the basis for my position.

post #64 of 386

Like you, Golfingdad, I am not going to debate fact.

 

If someone has the opinion that it isn't a disease, facts prove that wrong. The end.

post #65 of 386
Just wanted to add the below just in case others are interested.. The m.webmd site has a whole new list if addictions it wants people to be aware of.. From baseball, sex, shopping and others.. Under the title the new addictions you find this in the first paragraph by their featured writer:

"Behavioral addictions - to shopping, sex, even e-mail - trigger the same rush of feel-good dopamine to the brain as drugs and alcohol. Since these "fixes" aren't formally recognized by the medical establishment, insurance won't pony up for treatment. But that doesn't mean they can't undo your life."

Basically, the medical establishment knows that the insurance companies will laugh at them if they try and categorize sex as a disease, so they don't even try... It is much easier for the insurance companies to accept drug and alcohol because of the sympathy it garners from people, which would not be garnered by a sex addict for example! Even though both drugs and sex apparently trigger the brain the same way (according to the article on m.webmd anyway)

We have already heard the term sex addict thrown around a few times... Agh, forget it... I guess some diseases are better off not getting treated.. Or they can just make medicine to help the disease such as Viagra, but I digress!
post #66 of 386
@Abu3baid-I hope for the sake of those people that nobody you ever care for that none of them ever become alcoholic or turn out to be attracted to someone of the same gender.-Youre the most unsympathetic guy Ive seen in a long time.

Id feel bad for you but youre making the choice to be an unsympathetic jerk-the people you love who may turn out to be gay or addicted to something arent making the same choice as you.
post #67 of 386

Just for clarification purposes, are A-Rod and Braun cheaters for using PED's or people with a disease?

post #68 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post
 

Just for clarification purposes, are A-Rod and Braun cheaters for using PED's or people with a disease?

You're better than this.

post #69 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post

Just for clarification purposes, are A-Rod and Braun cheaters for using PED's or people with a disease?
Yikes!
post #70 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

You're better than this.

 

Agreed.

post #71 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil McGleno View Post

@Abu3baid-I hope for the sake of those people that nobody you ever care for that none of them ever become alcoholic or turn out to be attracted to someone of the same gender.-Youre the most unsympathetic guy Ive seen in a long time.

Id feel bad for you but youre making the choice to be an unsympathetic jerk-the people you love who may turn out to be gay or addicted to something arent making the same choice as you.

Thanks for the note, but what does all this have anything to do with the arguments I have put forth? Besides you can't really judge if I am the most un-sympathetic jerk around because of my stance on 2 subjects only?

Anyway, again thanks for the note but I think it is OT!

Edit: here is something not OT. I hope it helps further the discussion!

http://www.addictioninfo.org/articles/447/1/Alcoholism-is-not-a-Disease/Page1.html
Edited by Abu3baid - 8/3/14 at 10:07pm
post #72 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

You're better than this.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJH999 View Post


Yikes!

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

Agreed.

It's been determined medically that PEDs are addictive both physically and mentally, so I'm asking the question as to how we should classify such people.

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: The Grill Room
TheSandTrap.com › Golf Forum › The 19th Hole › The Grill Room › The Official (Not Official At All) Drugs & Alcohol Thread