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The Official (Not Official At All) Drugs & Alcohol Thread - Page 5

post #73 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post

It's been determined medically that PEDs are addictive both physically and mentally, so I'm asking the question as to how we should classify such people.

Still not sure why you're so hung up on the classification. If rehabilitation is what someone needs to stop taking EPO or deer antler spray or horse placenta, fine. Otherwise I'm not sure how it's relevant.

What do I care whether Dustin Johnson's cocaine problem is called as a disease? What his cocaine addiction/problem gets called will never affect me, not one day in my life. But for alcoholics, people with addictions, the knowledge that what they're going through can be treated and overcome is powerful. It can help them get help, and get through it. @zipazoid has made that point a dozen times.

I have no idea why you'd want to take that away, aside from, again, wanting to pat yourself on the back for not being a cocaine addict.

People make mistakes. I've got no reasons to be sanctimonious about it.
post #74 of 386

I know enough people with addiction problems that I can safely say I don't have sympathy for those who refuse to seek help.

 

I know my family has a predisposition to addiction so I have made the conscience effort to avoid drugs and rarely partake of alcohol because of this. I do not have sympathy for people who knew that their family was prone to addiction and still chose to tempt fate by using alcohol and/or drugs.

post #75 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamo View Post


Still not sure why you're so hung up on the classification. If rehabilitation is what someone needs to stop taking EPO or deer antler spray or horse placenta, fine. Otherwise I'm not sure how it's relevant.

What do I care whether Dustin Johnson's cocaine problem is called as a disease? What his cocaine addiction/problem gets called will never affect me, not one day in my life. But for alcoholics, people with addictions, the knowledge that what they're going through can be treated and overcome is powerful. It can help them get help, and get through it. @zipazoid has made that point a dozen times.

I have no idea why you'd want to take that away, aside from, again, wanting to pat yourself on the back for not being a cocaine addict.

People make mistakes. I've got no reasons to be sanctimonious about it.

I have no need to pat myself on the back or be sanctimonious I just find interest in hypocrisy and double standards.   People here were very vocal about their negative feelings towards A-Rod and Braun but because DJ is addicted to coke (plus who knows what else) and not PED's we're all warm and fuzzy wishing him the best in recovering from his disease. 

 

I wish the best for all and feel no need to be selective based on their drug of choice.

post #76 of 386
Thread Starter 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

But what I do know is that when I do an internet search, I get a return that tells me that the American Medical Association classifies alcoholism as a disease.

 

I consider myself smart enough to know that I don't know a lot of things, and medicine is one of those things, so I will go ahead and defer to people who do know.  That is the basis for my position.

 

@Golfingdad WINS!!!

:dance::dance::dance::dance:

post #77 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernest Jones View Post
 

 

@Golfingdad WINS!!!

:dance::dance::dance::dance:

And DJ is very foolish for  going out of his way to choose this very debilitating disease. B-)

There are enough horrific illnesses you can contract by accident without deliberately getting them.

post #78 of 386
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post
 

I have no need to pat myself on the back or be sanctimonious I just find interest in hypocrisy and double standards.   People here were very vocal about their negative feelings towards A-Rod and Braun but because DJ is addicted to coke (plus who knows what else) and not PED's we're all warm and fuzzy wishing him the best in recovering from his disease. 

 

I wish the best for all and feel no need to be selective based on their drug of choice.

A-Rod and Braun took PEDs for the express purpose of cheating. So I call 'em cheatin' bastards. If their chosen method of cheating happened to cause them to become addicted (I have no idea if they are) to a substance then they are also addicts which has been classified as a disease by the AMA. DJ didn't take coke to cheat (or otherwise harm) anyone, he, presumedly, took it because he was stupid and thought he was young and immortal. Happens all the time. 

post #79 of 386

I wanted to move past the "fact" that alcoholism and drug abuse is a disease for minute and go right into the "cure" of this disease...

 

Our friends at AA and their 12 step program.. Have any of you actually read the 12 step program??  Do you support the 12 step program of AA??  Do you know when AA was actually introduced into the behavioral correction industry?  Well, I didn't either, until I did a google search.. I'm not going to get into what some qualified doctors are saying about AA..  I am just going to list the 12 steps of "curing" this out of control disease.

 


These are the original twelve steps as published by Alcoholics Anonymous http://www.aa.org/pages/en_US/twelve-steps-and-twelve-traditions

  1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
  2. Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
  3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
  4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
  5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
  6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
  7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
  8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
  9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
  10. Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.
  11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
  12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

 


 

I really don't want to get into the success rate of the AA program which is at best around 33% and at worst 5%, but this program is still a solution imposed on individuals during sentencing by the courts (don't ask me why)!

 

Of course AA is not only for Alcoholics anymore.. They are much more than that, now they have these anonymous groups for sex, shopping, workaholics and many other things deemed as "issues"..

 

There was a poster that wished for me that I don't have any loved ones get afflicted with alcoholism, I say I hope that neither do they nor anyone else they know especially if they have to try and go through the 12 steps above!

post #80 of 386

There is no "cure." It is a daily reprieve contingent upon doing specific things.

post #81 of 386

Abu3baid, what would you suggest the courts do?

 

As I stated in a previous post, prior to 1935 there was nothing that could be done to alcoholics/addicts to "cure" them. They were locked up. The 12-step recovery program was founded that year, and it has become a method for millions to recover (not be cured) from their addictions. To date, 80 years later, it is still the only treatment with a level of success. That's why the courts, at times, mandate AA to a defendant.

 

Quote:
I really don't want to get into the success rate of the AA program which is at best around 33% and at worst 5%, but this program is still a solution imposed on individuals during sentencing by the courts (don't ask me why)!

 

It is a much lower cost to society than incarceration. That's why.

 

Now, the 12 steps. I can assure you that everyone who first walks into an AA meeting & sees those steps on the wall thinks, 'How in the hell does that work for me?' - they seem counter-intuitive or not really addressing what is wrong with the person. I know I felt that way. My attitude was uh dudes...give me something else. That looks like total b.s.

 

Success rates vary. You know why? Because it puts to onus on the person to do what is recommended. Why would they do that? Because they are in a room full of people who are doing it & have not drank or drugged in years, sometimes decades. The results are sitting all around them. And the alternative is, well, to die.

 

The reason that they are not 'cured' is that implies they can drink/drug safely again. They can't. Total abstinence is the only method, and what the steps do is introduce a new way of life to the addict that, if followed, removes the compulsion to drink. And the reason they look counter-intuitive is that it is a blueprint to that new life. Do these things, and you won't want to drink/drug. That's what recovery is - a new mindset implanted in the addict which removes the compulsion, and ultimately even, the thought to drink or drug. 

post #82 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammer 4 View Post
 

 

Do you really think buying, selling and using coke is a Victim less crime...?   Better think again my friend. People get Murdered over such things, people get robbed, people die from over doses

 

Which is why, at least marijuana, should be decriminalized and eventually legalized. Make it legal and get it out of the hands of the black market. Tax it, regulate it and treat abuse.

post #83 of 386
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammer 4 View Post


You need to read up on the sales of illegal drugs. My statement is in no way weak. Your view on the subject is blind. In case some of you haven't noticed, drugs are Illegal to sell, possess and use.

If you condone the use, you are saying the Drug cartels are o.k. doing what they do. Like growing pot on Public land in our forest's and ruining the water ways, tossing tons of garbage and destroying the land. If that's o.k. with you, then you have issues.
Originally Posted by Ernest Jones View Post


With all due respect, you're missing the point entirely. All that tragic stuff you just cited is not caused by drugs, they're caused by the War on Drugs.

Lots of people were murdered during the Prohibition too, now you just go to the liquor store and get a bottle of wine whenever you want. You want to take down the drug cartels? Legalize it. BOOM. No more black market and no more cartels.

 

Bingo! Plus the criminalization of recreational drugs in this country has led to a culture of incarceration that is unprecedented in history.

post #84 of 386
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by phan52 View Post
 

 

Which is why, at least marijuana, should be decriminalized and eventually legalized. Make it legal and get it out of the hands of the black market. Tax it, regulate it and treat abuse.

My understanding (which is admittedly all anecdotal) is that the societies that have gone that route have FAR less social issues due to these substances, including (ironically) a lower user rate and less abusive usage. 

post #85 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by phan52 View Post

Bingo! Plus the criminalization of recreational drugs in this country has led to a culture of incarceration that is unprecedented in history.

Let us say that I agree with you to a certain extent.. My next question would be at what drug do you stop? If you were to list all the drugs that you want legalized how would that list go?
post #86 of 386

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by meenman View Post
 

This whole thing is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

Once the stoners get their way and make pot semi-legal, coke will be the next step. Will the pro-druggies be advocating legal heroin use at that point?

 

There would be one good purpose to legalizing all of it - thinning the herd. More ODs by dummies, less of my tax dollars supporting them.

 

Actually, that is not true. In places where recreational drug use is legal, taxed and regulated, there is less instances of ODing. And the tax dollars that are used for treatment for abuse comes from the massive amounts of dollars that come from the taxing so, if you do not use drugs, your tax dollars are not used for treatment.

 

That doesn't even include all the money the US spends around the world to fight the production of drugs made solely for our consumption. Our illegal consumption forces other countries to criminalize the production. Everybody everywhere would be better off without the ridiculously futile war on drugs that we have been waging for over thirty years now.

post #87 of 386
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by phan52 View Post
 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by meenman View Post
 

This whole thing is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

Once the stoners get their way and make pot semi-legal, coke will be the next step. Will the pro-druggies be advocating legal heroin use at that point?

 

There would be one good purpose to legalizing all of it - thinning the herd. More ODs by dummies, less of my tax dollars supporting them.

 

Actually, that is not true. In places where recreational drug use is legal, taxed and regulated, there is less instances of ODing. And the tax dollars that are used for treatment for abuse comes from the massive amounts of dollars that come from the taxing so, if you do not use drugs, your tax dollars are not used for treatment.

 

That doesn't even include all the money the US spends around the world to fight the production of drugs made solely for our consumption. Our illegal consumption forces other countries to criminalize the production. Everybody everywhere would be better off without the ridiculously futile war on drugs that we have been waging for over thirty years now.

@meenman , remind me what you do for a living again? :whistle:

 

:-P

post #88 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abu3baid View Post


Let us say that I agree with you to a certain extent.. My next question would be at what drug do you stop? If you were to list all the drugs that you want legalized how would that list go?

 

First of all, let's make it clear that there is far more abuse in this country with legal drugs. Things like oxycontin and other painkillers are nothing but legal opiates that are abused far more than recreational drugs. That said, there is no reason why almost all recreational drugs should not be legalized and regulated. It would destroy the black market for the drugs, and stop the resulting violence. Plus I don't think it would create any more drug abuse than exists today, and it would be safer.

post #89 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by phan52 View Post
 

 

First of all, let's make it clear that there is far more abuse in this country with legal drugs. Things like oxycontin and other painkillers are nothing but legal opiates that are abused far more than recreational drugs. That said, there is no reason why almost all recreational drugs should not be legalized and regulated. It would destroy the black market for the drugs, and stop the resulting violence. Plus I don't think it would create any more drug abuse than exists today, and it would be safer.

I don't believe that oxycontin and other pain killers are abused more than other drugs like coke and such. I also don't agree that we should just legalize anything and everything. You can't say "it worked in that country so it'll work in ours" because Americans are a people of excess much more so than most other countries. I'd prefer that drugs weren't legalized, but I realize that if I'm in the minority then what I want won't matter. 

post #90 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by phan52 View Post
 

 

First of all, let's make it clear that there is far more abuse in this country with legal drugs. Things like oxycontin and other painkillers are nothing but legal opiates that are abused far more than recreational drugs. That said, there is no reason why almost all recreational drugs should not be legalized and regulated. It would destroy the black market for the drugs, and stop the resulting violence. Plus I don't think it would create any more drug abuse than exists today, and it would be safer.

 

Ok.. So, basically what you are saying is legalize everything correct..?  If I go off of that then.

 

I'm sorry, but Oxycontin is not a legal drug with the true sense of the word.. You can't just walk into a store and buy it can you?  So, it isn't really a good comparison regardless of how much of it is abused on a daily basis.  Unless you are also suggesting that it should be open for people to buy if they so please as well?

 

Even countries such as the Netherlands as far as I know don't have legal cocaine or heroine, but obviously you are suggesting that these get legalized along with crack and meth.  You are taking it a step further than the Netherlands and that is fine, this is the world you are willing to live in..  

 

1.  Do you realize the ramification of what you are proposing?

2.  I would love to hear the argument of how it would destroy the black market?  How it would destroy or stop as a mater of fact the Cartel from enslaving labor girls to collect their harvest, to meet the crazy demand of the crack heads?

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