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European Ryder Cup team - Page 4

post #55 of 134
Originally Posted by Silent View Post

Derksen plays on European Tour only, and will be offtopic in almost every thread here I suppose b2_tongue.gif

But all joking aside, on Westwood I have a solid point I believe. His performance and results are not very impressive this year. I would pick Jimenez, Molinari or Gallacher also over him.
Shucks. Well we might have to make RJD Catch-all thread! Haha
post #56 of 134
Thread Starter 

I thought he was going to take issue witht he eloquent bit!


I actually agree with you ITH


I don't think this is over before a ball has been struck!


I do think America will need to do something a bit left field, but I think the environment is right for them to play unhindered by expectation. That kind of environment can suddenly take off. So much about RC is about momentum. Tom needs to start talking Europe up though and piling the expectation on them not to win, but to win by points to spare etc See how rattled McGinlay suddenly gets if Tom starts talking like that

post #57 of 134
Originally Posted by inthehole View Post

Gmac, Poulter, Bjorn, Dubuison, Donald, Westwood have been largely underachieving this year (at least on the PGA tour - none of them are setting the world on fire over here)  ... just not seeing this contest as a blowout, my eloquent European friend ! 

G-Mac has three PGA top 10's and one Euro win in his last 4 tournaments. To me that would be an EASY pick if I had to pick right now. 

post #58 of 134
Originally Posted by FarawayFairways View Post

Maybe, but the Ryder Cup is a stage, and sometimes we're looking for those with a bit of X factor to announce their arrival. It can go carnival and it can go bear pit.


I'm thinking that America will probably send Bubba out first and with his ropey temperament, plus a tendancy to say things which won't go down well in Scotland, Europe needs to think about how they can strike an early blow against him by bringing the crowd into play. We know he gets rattled away from home, and that's leading to me thinking what would happen if a pairing like Poulter and Gallacher were lay one on Bubba first up? It would be a little bit like watching the self styled invincible pairing of Mickelson and Woods getting gubbed twice on the first day and American hopes sank from there on in.

As favourites and the home team I'd have thought you go with strength up front and not worry about the US pairings. 


Seeing how close Rory and Sergio seemed over the weekend that would seem an obvious pairing, then Rose & Poulter who are besties, then maybe Kaymer & Stenson, though I'd disagree on similar temperaments - Stenson is responsible for about half the club breakings/throwings on Youtube and I've never seen Kaymer lose his rag, then McDowell and someone.


Let Tom W worry about Europe rather than getting our players worrying about the US pairings.


Do we know whether its 4balls or 4somes first up?

post #59 of 134
Thread Starter 

Yes, you're quite right Wanstead


I think I was making the mistake of allowing myself to slip into stereotyping based on nationality. Hot headed Swedes aren't really something we associate with them. 


I think you're also correct to point out that you let the opposition worry about you and not the other way round. The reason I say that, is because I wrote something to that effect about 24 hours ago, so the allegation of muddled headed hypocrite sits quite comfortably with me on that one I'm afraid


I do like the idea of trying to take down an opposition strong pair with one of your own lesser pairings early, but I think your more straight forward strategy is likely to be the more sensible answer than me trying to be too clever (assuming of course I could second guess the American pairings in the first place!)



post #60 of 134
Originally Posted by FarawayFairways View Post

Tiger calls time on his Ryder Cup bid and finally admits what was apparent since April


Now the US can at least concentrate on what will line up


I actually think he showed a bloody minded determination to try and reverse what was never going to happen, so credit to him for that, but this whole thing could have been called much earlier without Tom jumping round like a performing dog. The decision could have been pretty well taken at Hoylake even


You seem to enjoy picking on Tom Watson, one of the most successful, esteemed, professional golfers of all time. Ok, team loyalty and all that, but I'm curious, what you think of your own captain?  


Paul McGinely is at best a journeyman pro who pretty much defines mediocrity in his own professional career.  He's got a helluva team and will almost certainly win, but did they really need to reach that far down towards the bottom of the barrel to find someone willing to take on the job?  Or was it as simple as tossing a cookie to the Irish in the form of their first team captain?


I'm genuinely interested in your insight.

post #61 of 134
Bernard Gallagher, another who could readily described as a journeyman pro, has been Europes geatest captain, and Nick Faldo, narguably Europes greatest player,has quite easily been Europes least competent captain, so I think you might be somewhat unaware of the qualities required to do both jobs. McGinley, despite being a journeyman pro, has been a major force in the European game over the past 15 years off the course, and has done his apprenticeship for this job over a number of years, with 3 spells of duty as vice captain at the Rc, and a couple of years as captain of the GB&I team in the Seve trophy. He is also hugely respected by the players, and not just the Irish, as evidenced by their support when Monty made a late run for the position last year. As for having to go down the list to find a captain, you must be taking the piss. There is a queue going around the block of far better rated current and past players for the Euro captaincy in the next 10 years. He is a guy of the the highest integrity, as I experienced almost 30 years ago when I caddied for him at an amateur tournament at my club, when he called attention to a possible infringent when he was leading a very highly regarded tournament (Robert Allenby finished third that year, and past winners include, McIlroy, Harrington et al). It was a possible infringement that no one else could have been aware of as he was chipping from trees next to a green in front of maybe 20 or 30 people, in fact I was standing nearest to him and I wasn't aware of it. I've met him since, and in fact attended a corporate day late last year where he spoke, and he is one of the strongest, most confidet, andbyet likeable guys you'll ever meet in gold. Underestimate him at your peril.
post #62 of 134
Thread Starter 

Crikey, you've even taking to copying and pasting from other threads now! I won't repeat all of what I've said in response to you (again) on the thread where the original appeared. So i'll give you a truncated version




The notion that you need to be an apex player to captain/ manage a team, has been proven time and time again across a whole range of sports not to be a pre-requisite for success. Indeed, it tends to be the apex players who struggle most when they're asked to bring teams together.


I think your explanation that he was a journeyman player at best is of course correct, and he's no where remotely close to Watson's standard, but there is a weakness in your argument here. Neither of them are being asked to play! I think it's quite possible you can therefore turn this round in terms of their suitability for the tasks they're being asked to perform. McGinlay has been vice captain to both Colin Montgomerie in 2010, and Jose Maria Olazabal in 2012. That means he has first hand experience of two quite dramatic wins. In 2009 and 2011 he's successfully captained GB & Ireland against Europe in the Seve trophy. That means his record as captain or vice captain in these types of formats is 4-0 which includes access and interaction with all of the players. Tom captained a team in 1993 at the Belfry and won, but this remains his only real exposure. I think you could easily argue that in terms of contemprary experience of team matchplay events, Paul McGinlay is better qualified than Tom Watson. 


I think it's possibly worth remembering that the European captaincy is the culmination of about 5-6 working in and around the management core, it's not something that's given out as a 'career thankyou' anymore to a former stellar player. I think the last Captain to be thrown straight in was argubaly the most disasterous of the lot (Nick Faldo). Europe has recognised the need to develop the captaincy since. 


I do remember one of the first things I ever read on this forum was an appraisal of why America keeps losing the Ryder Cup and it would have brough a reassuring smile to many European faces. The article missed a whole raft of important influences. If it is indeed typical of the orthodoxy of establishment thinking, then until America faces up to the role she plays herself in motivating Europe's players, they'll continue to score own goals


I also think its true that unfortunate things keep happening to dysfunctional teams (I'm thinking of some England cricket teams) and that these 'events' will expose the deficiencies in the captain under pressure even more as they try to parry them.


Actually there was an interesting comment attributed to the BBC's golf correspondent (Iain Carter) this morning on the subject of Tom's captaincy. 


"The uncertainty over whether Woods would receive a wildcard was already starting to have a corrosive effect on the captain's authority".


Now you can snear if you want and say what does a journalist know etc? Well in truth golf and journalism co-exist in a bubble. Carter as the correspondent of an apex news and media organisation is going to have his sources in both teams. "Starting to have a corrosive effect" might be his own words, but he won't have picked them out the air. They'll be as a result of his own observations plus those of players and players associates whispering in his ear


It's been obvious to me (and believe me, I'm sad about it) that Tom is struggling, and has been for some time. For all that, I secretly hope that perhaps the US can win, but that's another story

post #63 of 134
Originally Posted by FarawayFairways View Post

Crikey, you've even taking to copying and pasting from other threads now! I won't repeat all of what I've said in response to you (again) on the thread where the original appeared. So i'll give you a truncated version



If you look, you'll see that I very quickly moved my post from the other thread to here as more appropriate.

post #64 of 134
Thread Starter 

Well not really sure how you can imply thats my fault other than having the audacity perhaps to respond to you quickly as I came across it


I should perhaps correct one of my own errors as Far West has pointed out, McGinlay was in fact a Vice Captain on Faldo's ill-fated folly. I'm not so sure that this doesn't actually enhance McGinlay's credentials though, as he got a first hand demonstration of how not to manage a sports team. I think Europe probably made the mistake of sending someone who they thought would appease the American media and dilute the impact of the crowd a bit as Faldo is probably the most American facing player of that generation. American clearly made a catastrophic error of appreciation when they sent Pavin over (even if he did a good job) but Corey should have been a homer, not an away captain


One of the most stark differences between the two so far as that McGinlay to date (and I personally suspect it could well be bluster) has continually underlined the value of form and picking people accordingly with no free passes. That will undoubtedly build a stronger team ethic than Tom's approach of one rule for Tiger and one rule for everyone else


I had high hopes for Tom, I thought he was the correct choice, I think on balance I still do, but he isn't half making a lot of mistakes in recent months. I can only think of three things he's said that I'd agree with


1: Character is every bit as important if not more so than pure golfing ability

2: We need to make a big early impact and attack from the start to silence the crowd

3: We need to consider attacking the oppositions point of strength in order to undermine them


This latter point was in the context of asking Rory McIlroy to defect (today's comment). It's actually little more than a take on what Europe did in 2004 though. According to Hal Sutton, and the American media, Tiger woods and Phil Mickelson were unbeatable and there was no point Europe turning up. Unfortunately for both, Europe was playing the match on the day, and the reputation or the world ranking. At the end of Friday they were left asking where this Tiger and Phil partnership was? It had been gubbed, with the two looking to be clearly ill at ease with each other (surely it was beholden on Sutton to know this?). It was split up on the Saturday, but because the American team had believed their own propoganda the morale was fatally flawed. America's all start strong pairing had been taken down by combinations of Montgomerie, Harrington, Westwood and Clarke. Day one stood at 6.5 to 1.5 - game over


I actually think there's merit in America having a go and trying to land a wild haymaker on Rory. One detects that America is going OTT about Rory and building up something of a fear factor. Rory's a golfer, and any golfer is always capable of being beaten over a single round on any given day in this format. Rory's own RC record ain't spectacular. He's not really been one of Europe's more engaged players with the format. I think he'll lead off with Sergio, and I'd be inclined to send the two players who I think are going to be the least intimidated by reputations after them (Pat Reed and Hunter Mahan). Take him down guys, and we've got a match on, as it's going to lift the whole team. Lose and.... well it was probably to be expected, but for Gods sake put them through the wringer and make them work for every birdie

post #65 of 134

So in the US Donald & Poulter miss the cut whilst Westie makes it on the number, but needs to play well on the weekend to have a tournament to play next week.


Back in Europe, Donaldson leads the tournament & Gallacher is t3, with Super Joost 6 shots back.


I think Donaldson & McDowell make it automatically with the picks going to Poulter, Gallacher and probably Donald, unless Molinari wins or top 5s at home next week.


All the players in with a chance of a pick based in Europe are playing next week in Italy except Jimenez.



post #66 of 134
Originally Posted by Wansteadimp View Post

So in the US Donald & Poulter miss the cut whilst Westie makes it on the number, but needs to play well on the weekend to have a tournament to play next week.

Back in Europe, Donaldson leads the tournament & Gallacher is t3, with Super Joost 6 shots back.

I think Donaldson & McDowell make it automatically with the picks going to Poulter, Gallacher and probably Donald, unless Molinari wins or top 5s at home next week.

All the players in with a chance of a pick based in Europe are playing next week in Italy except Jimenez.

I like that "Super Joost" is catching on. Looks certainly like picking three out of Poulter, Westwood, Gallacher, or Donald. I'd be pretty surprised if anyone else got in.
post #67 of 134
Thread Starter 

I think he'll pick the obvious three, largely because it's the easiest selection and the one that'll cause the least disruption and draw the least flak


Somehow though he's got to square off this idea that he's picking on form which is something he's held out throughout the selection process, even to the point where he's been off message with Sam


It's difficult to say how Luke Donald is a form selection? Poulter has had excuses with fitness, but the same rule should apply to him as Tiger. He really does look to be off the pace at the moment. Westwood has shown snatches recently (as you might argue Luke has) but that's all it is, snatches


I suspect that at the end of the day McGinaly is going to say that America needs 14.5 pts to win, he's on home soil, he's got three of the worlds top five, and that the onus is on the American's to make something happen.


If you were in his position, charged with winning the Ryder Cup having been involved in it for over a decade now would you pick Gallacher, Molinari and Super Joost at the expense of Westwood, Donald, & Poulter? If you lose the cup on the back of those selections you're going to get crucified and could easily go down as the worst captain in history. Now that's too simplistic as I've presented it, but for each player you introduce outside of the obvious three the louder the alarm bell will ring

post #68 of 134

I still think picking Poulter would be a horrible, HORRIBLE decision right now. 

post #69 of 134

Gallacher is definitely the dark horse for Europe. I read somewhere where he's played Gleneagles more than any other golfer in Europe and his knowledge of the course would be an asset. I think Westwood is a shoe-in as a pick. If it does go to Gallacher and Westwood, then I think McGinley has to choose between Donald and Poulter. I don't think Luiten's played well enough and doesn't have the experience and Molinari has not been sharp the last few months. If you're going to take a pick away from a big name, you have to prove yourself here down the stretch.

post #70 of 134

Congrats to Jamie Donaldson on his Czech Masters win this weekend and likely a spot on the Euro team!

post #71 of 134

I'm going for Gallacher, Donald and Molinari as captain's picks. Unless Super Joost will win it in Italy this week ;)

post #72 of 134

I'll be extremely disappointed if Gallacher doesn't make the team.


2014 - 7 Top Ten's, 1 win, very steady player who just so happens to be SCOTTISH, and just so happens to know the Gleneagles course very well. If he doesn't pass up McDowell to make the team automatically you would think he'd be a shoe-in for Captain's pick. 

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