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Sliced a ball into an expensive window. Did I do the right thing? - Page 7

post #109 of 261
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave2512 View Post
 

Any that are worth playing are usually aware of this. The only courses I've seen where houses are so close to be in play were probably there before the homes were built and the initial course design isn't compatible with the developers planning. I've heard of buyers being required to sign a waiver, it's disclosed at the time the contract is signed not at closing. Most of the golf communities that were designed correctly have ample room for errant shots and homes are situated where they would be nearly impossible to hit unless it was intentional. I'm going out later and I'll try to take some pics. My home course has a few holes with homes on both sides but at the middle they are wide enough to land a commercial airliner. Only time you are within a few yards of homes is on tee boxes and where the cart path goes around the green. You'd have to hit a slice or hook completely off the course. The areas on either side of the fairway not intended for play are as wide as the fairway and rough. The only time I've been near anyone's yard is if the ball hits the cart path and takes a huge bounce.

Here's one that's near me:

That set of markers is 260 yards from the middle of the back tee box.  Note that it's 24 yards from the edge of the fairway to the corner of that house.  The FAIRWAY.  Not the rough, the scrub, or any other such nonsense, but the FAIRWAY.

 

Interesting note about this course, BTW:  It was a 27 hole, semi private Jack Nicklaus course and they blew up half of it for those houses.  All of the stuff below and left of that hole used to be other holes.

post #110 of 261
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shindig View Post


Did your parents teach you that you can make excuses for your lack of responsibility? It sounds like you're doing that: excusing the homeowner from every bit of his legal and moral culpability. "Oh, the homeowner didn't know there was a golf course there, he should be able to treat his house the same as he would in the middle of nowhere." Maybe those weren't your exact words, but we all got the message.

I worry your daughter, raised to your so-called standards, might preside over the next Enron or housing crisis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by krupa View Post
 

 

By choosing that house, the homeowner has accepted the risk that an errant ball will come through his window.  He also accepts the risk that the golfer will run away and he will have to replace the window on his own dime.

 

But, I think that it is incorrect to say that he is somehow "responsible".

 

It's correct if he doesn't take any reasonable precautions. It's not like the golf course appeared out of thin air behind his house, as David seems to think happened.

 

I think you're mixing the ideas of accepting risk and being responsible when that risk is realized.  

 

According to Google:

 

re·spon·si·ble
riˈspänsəbəl/
adjective
 
  1. having an obligation to do something, or having control over or care for someone, as part of one's job or role.
    "the department responsible for education"
    synonyms: in charge of, in control of, at the helm of, accountable for, liable forMore
     
    • being the primary cause of something and so able to be blamed or credited for it.
      "the gene was responsible for a rare type of eye cancer"
      synonyms: accountableanswerable, to blame, guiltyculpableblameworthy, at fault, in the wrong More

 

 

Both definitions actually apply here.  The golfer is the primary cause of the broken window but the homeowner end up being the one obligated to replace it.

 

It's not really a semantic argument, either.  Unless you never leave your house, you accept the risk that someone may do harm/damage to you and your property.  That doesn't make you responsible for them doing it.   You can't walk up and punch someone and say, "he got in the way of my fist"

post #111 of 261

Yeah but it's California :-P.

post #112 of 261
Quote:
Originally Posted by krupa View Post

I think you're mixing the ideas of accepting risk and being responsible when that risk is realized.  

According to Google:

re·spon·si·ble

riˈspänsəbəl/

adjective
 




  1. having an obligation to do something, or having control over or care for someone, as part of one's job or role.


    "the department responsible for education"




    synonyms: in charge of, in control of, at the helm of, accountable for, liable forMore


     












    • being the primary cause of something and so able to be blamed or credited for it.


      "the gene was responsible for a rare type of eye cancer"




      synonyms: accountableanswerable, to blame, guiltyculpableblameworthy, at fault, in the wrong More



















Both definitions actually apply here.  The golfer is the primary cause of the broken window but the homeowner end up being the one obligated to replace it.

It's not really a semantic argument, either.  Unless you never leave your house, you accept the risk that someone may do harm/damage to you and your property.  That doesn't make you responsible for them doing it.   You can't walk up and punch someone and say, "he got in the way of my fist"

I'm reminded of something one of my law professors once said: "The 'reasonable man' we talk about in law would be one boring, miserable prick in real life."
post #113 of 261

In my experience, houses next to courses is closer to what Golfingdad posted than what Dave2512 posted.  That's what I'm picturing when I read the OP.

post #114 of 261
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shindig View Post

Did your parents teach you that you can make excuses for your lack of responsibility? It sounds like you're doing that: excusing the homeowner from every bit of his legal and moral culpability. "Oh, the homeowner didn't know there was a golf course there, he should be able to treat his house the same as he would in the middle of nowhere." Maybe those weren't your exact words, but we all got the message.

I worry your daughter, raised to your so-called standards, might preside over the next Enron or housing crisis.
It's correct if he doesn't take any reasonable precautions. It's not like the golf course appeared out of thin air behind his house, as David seems to think happened.

Someone who accepts full responsibility for their actions could "preside over the next Enron or housing crisis? Wow..... b3_huh.gif

The thing that scares me, especially with respect to my daughter, is that I have to wonder how far the transition is from "he deserved to have his house hit because he built/bought it there", to "she deserved to be raped because of the way she dressed". The thought process is the same....
post #115 of 261
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post

Here's one that's near me:
That set of markers is 260 yards from the middle of the back tee box.  Note that it's 24 yards from the edge of the fairway to the corner of that house.  The FAIRWAY.  Not the rough, the scrub, or any other such nonsense, but the FAIRWAY.

Interesting note about this course, BTW:  It was a 27 hole, semi private Jack Nicklaus course and they blew up half of it for those houses.  All of the stuff below and left of that hole used to be other holes.

I agree that the course designers (and house designers) should be aware of spots where houses can come into play. There are a few courses near me that are built in housing developments. One is good with houses, the other is bad.

The bad one, Highfields:

The 12th hole is only 275 from tee to green, and people try to cut it all the time because there are no trees on the right. There is a house, which that direct line sends your ball right over:



Then on the 15th, a par 5, the ideal line (even if you're hitting less than driver) off the tee cuts off some OB right.



And then near the green, there's a house about 25 yards from the green. This one is especially dangerous because people are often hitting woods into the green, and the grass near the green is cut pretty short.



Then the next hole has another house about 20 yards from the green. Again, lots of people are hitting long irons and woods into that green.



Compare that to another course right along a housing development, Shining Rock. Houses on that course are either only near tee boxes or are heavily buffered by mature trees and are sufficiently far from the course


Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post

Someone who accepts full responsibility for their actions could "preside over the next Enron or housing crisis? Wow..... b3_huh.gif

The thing that scares me, especially with respect to my daughter, is that I have to wonder how far the transition is from "he deserved to have his house hit because he built/bought it there", to "she deserved to be raped because of the way she dressed". The thought process is the same....

No one's said that the houses "deserve" to be hit.
post #116 of 261

If you live on or on the border of a golf course you have to be realistic and realize that a golf ball might do damage to your property. It's like an extra "tax", whether you pay more for insurance or just deal with it when stuff happens. Having said that I think the right thing to do, whether it's a 5 million dollar house or a 100K house, is to get in contact with the homeowner, make sure no one is hurt and make an offer or give them your insurance info. "Running away" is BS.

post #117 of 261
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post

Someone who accepts full responsibility for their actions could "preside over the next Enron or housing crisis? Wow..... b3_huh.gif

Except it's the exact same argument; banks wanted to blame the people who took the mortgages (most of whom weren't, let's face it, smart enough to know better) without taking the blame for not doing their due diligence in loaning half a million to someone making minimum wage.

Reasonable people expected that the banks should have been responsible for at least looking into the ability of borrowers to repay the loans they were making. Arguments like the one you're making absolve them of their responsibility for this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post

The thing that scares me, especially with respect to my daughter, is that I have to wonder how far the transition is from "he deserved to have his house hit because he built/bought it there", to "she deserved to be raped because of the way she dressed". The thought process is the same....

No, it's pretty much the exact opposite, unless you think penises aren't under the nearly full control of the body they're attached to. If you have the same control of your tee shots that you do of your penis, I'm not sure if I want to envy you (in the case that you have a normal man's penis control, and manage to exert the same over the golf ball) or pity you (every golfers' control of tee shots applied ... nevermind).

And with that, I'm done with this thread. It's clear this is becoming personal insults-ville and I hate that I allowed myself to be drawn down to that level.
post #118 of 261
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamo View Post


No one's said that the houses "deserve" to be hit.

The homeowner deserves to have his house hit, or is responsible for it having been hit. Nothing but semantics.

Scary.
post #119 of 261
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsc123 View Post
 

In my experience, houses next to courses is closer to what Golfingdad posted than what Dave2512 posted.  That's what I'm picturing when I read the OP.


I've never seen anything like his example, lines of homes that close to a course, but I can see how it happens when courses get chopped for housing. The pic I posted the house is actually closer than 24 yards to the fairway but the hole plays away from it. I usually try to hit my shot just left of that tree. It's kind of a funky hole I often play a 5i 5i wedge to stay out of trouble. Can't see the green from the fairway anyway until you get to the top of the hill. Not worried about the house as much as losing it right, behind that cottonwood is ESA.

post #120 of 261
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post


The thing that scares me, especially with respect to my daughter, is that I have to wonder how far the transition is from "he deserved to have his house hit because he built/bought it there", to "she deserved to be raped because of the way she dressed". The thought process is the same....

You lose me here.  That's not even remotely the same.  The golfer (who's not getting drunk and teeing up sideways on purpose) is doing precisely what he's supposed to be doing - attempting to hit golf balls towards the hole to the best of his ability on the course as it's presented to him.  I can't imagine a scenario where the rapist is ever doing something he's supposed to be doing.

 


Here's something I think is fairly similar:  baseball.  I broke a car window during a baseball game once because I hit a foul ball over the fence onto the street behind the field.  (A parked car)  Is that my fault?  The pitchers fault?  The schools fault?  Or the guy who parked his car within foul ball range?

post #121 of 261
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post

You lose me here.  That's not even remotely the same.  The golfer (who's not getting drunk and teeing up sideways on purpose) is doing precisely what he's supposed to be doing - attempting to hit golf balls towards the hole to the best of his ability on the course as it's presented to him.  I can't imagine a scenario where the rapist is ever doing something he's supposed to be doing.

Here's something I think is fairly similar:  baseball.  I broke a car window during a baseball game once because I hit a foul ball over the fence onto the street behind the field.  (A parked car)  Is that my fault?  The pitchers fault?  The schools fault?  Or the guy who parked his car within foul ball range?

It's a matter of blaming the innocent victim for the actions of the perpetrator......whether those actions and the resulting damage was intentional, or not.

I'll stop now. I know that there are otherwise good people who somehow don't understand the concept of personal responsibility, but for some reason it continues to surprise and disappoint me when I run into them.


And that broken car window? I would have left a note on the car letting him know that I was the one who hit the ball. I hope my daughter would do the same.
post #122 of 261
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

(A parked car)  Is that my fault?  

 

Yes you should have eaten your Wheaties and hit it over the car

post #123 of 261
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvmac View Post

Yes you should have eaten your Wheaties and hit it over the car

And through the window of the house behind it! a3_biggrin.gif
post #124 of 261
Get in your car and get the HELL outta there.
post #125 of 261
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post

And that broken car window? I would have left a note on the car letting him know that I was the one who hit the ball. I hope my daughter would do the same.

Not necessary.  This was probably the ultimate karma moment for me.  I was playing third base in an adult rec baseball league, and there was a guy on first base.  Batter hit one to center, the guy on first foolishly tried to go first-to-third, and the centerfielder threw me the ball.  He was about 15-20 feet short of the base when I caught it.  A normal person would have either attempted to turn back or just slow down and concede.  A real competitive person would try to slide around me.  This guy chose none of those and tried to bowl me over and knock the ball out of my hands.

 

A couple of innings later when I smashed that car windshield (may have been the rear window, I don't remember anymore, it was a long time ago) it turned out to be his.

 


Point is, though, that I think this compares favorably to the golf course scenario.  (A hell of a lot more favorably than your rape scenario)  The players are just playing the game.  Foul balls are part of that game.  If you choose to park your car in foul ball territory, then you're taking a risk.  If it's not on the car owner, then maybe it's on the school for not making the fence so high that it would be impossible to clear it.  But to ask a kid to pay for that window is asking an awful lot in my opinion.

post #126 of 261
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post

Not necessary.  This was probably the ultimate karma moment for me.  I was playing third base in an adult rec baseball league, and there was a guy on first base.  Batter hit one to center, the guy on first foolishly tried to go first-to-third, and the centerfielder threw me the ball.  He was about 15-20 feet short of the base when I caught it.  A normal person would have either attempted to turn back or just slow down and concede.  A real competitive person would try to slide around me.  This guy chose none of those and tried to bowl me over and knock the ball out of my hands.

A couple of innings later when I smashed that car windshield (may have been the rear window, I don't remember anymore, it was a long time ago) it turned out to be his.

c3_clap.gif
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