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Sliced a ball into an expensive window. Did I do the right thing? - Page 10

post #163 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretzel View Post
 

I've said repeatedly that I would go up and at least notify the owner of the property of what would happen. The fact that golf is a gentlemen's game does nothing to affect the fact that me, as a high schooler, cannot afford to buy someone a window. Since the law says I do not have to buy the person a window, I will not buy them a window because I cannot afford it and do not have to.

 

You could.. you know... work it off.   This is mostly a moral discussion and morals usually revolve around doing what you consider the "right" thing even though you don't have to.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretzel View Post
 

 

You must have missed the part where I'm a student in high school. It would currently be scientifically impossible for me to have had (or have within 9 months) any children.

 

The human body must have devolved since I was in high school.

post #164 of 260

You probably have not learned about it yet in school but the law in general does not specifically outline every thing that you pay for if you broke it.  You committed a tort as but not for your negligence (hitting the ball into someone's window and breaking it) this would not have happened.  I do hope at some point in your schooling that you learn about this so that you are not exposed to the free world thinking that age or wealth excuses you from your actions legally.  As a minor your parents would be responsible for your actions in this event.

 

You say you will notify the owner indicating that you have not as of now.  You continue to give excuses (age/high school) to your actions.  It is exactly this lack of responsibility/sense of entitlement (I'm allowed to play golf but not allowed to be held accountable) that permeates the youth of this country that has me very worried about the future.  It's not your fault though, I blame my generation (the same as your parents probably) for this failure raising their children to think that just because someone is rich or because they are under 18 that actions do not have consequences.

post #165 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjwestner View Post
 

You probably have not learned about it yet in school but the law in general does not specifically outline every thing that you pay for if you broke it.  You committed a tort as but not for your negligence (hitting the ball into someone's window and breaking it) this would not have happened.  I do hope at some point in your schooling that you learn about this so that you are not exposed to the free world thinking that age or wealth excuses you from your actions legally.  As a minor your parents would be responsible for your actions in this event.

 

You say you will notify the owner indicating that you have not as of now.  You continue to give excuses (age/high school) to your actions.  It is exactly this lack of responsibility/sense of entitlement (I'm allowed to play golf but not allowed to be held accountable) that permeates the youth of this country that has me very worried about the future.  It's not your fault though, I blame my generation (the same as your parents probably) for this failure raising their children to think that just because someone is rich or because they are under 18 that actions do not have consequences.


Give the kid a break. He obviously should have left a note or went to see the homeowner but I would bet that he was pretty freaked out about this when it happened. Don't get all pious and principled and start talking like my grandfather. I know plenty of teens that take responsibility for their actions and even thought their parents have money they don't act entitled. By the way if you think the attitude you refer to is something new then you are wrong.

post #166 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjwestner View Post
 

You probably have not learned about it yet in school but the law in general does not specifically outline every thing that you pay for if you broke it.  You committed a tort as but not for your negligence (hitting the ball into someone's window and breaking it) this would not have happened.  I do hope at some point in your schooling that you learn about this so that you are not exposed to the free world thinking that age or wealth excuses you from your actions legally.  As a minor your parents would be responsible for your actions in this event.

 

You say you will notify the owner indicating that you have not as of now.  You continue to give excuses (age/high school) to your actions.  It is exactly this lack of responsibility/sense of entitlement (I'm allowed to play golf but not allowed to be held accountable) that permeates the youth of this country that has me very worried about the future.  It's not your fault though, I blame my generation (the same as your parents probably) for this failure raising their children to think that just because someone is rich or because they are under 18 that actions do not have consequences.

@Pretzel is not the OP.  And enough with the righteous indignation.  We get it.  Golfers need to be responsible regardless of their age or wealth, but homeowners don't need to be responsible regardless of their ago or wealth.  Cool.

 

I can build my house in the line of fire and put up no nets, or use no plexiglass on the windows, facing the tee and basically dare every person that comes through to break it and then expect them to pay for that.  How is that not irresponsible????

post #167 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjwestner View Post
.  You committed a tort as but not for your negligence (hitting the ball into someone's window and breaking it) this would not have happened.  

 

You believe an errant tee-shot is negligence? I'd like to see that proven in a court of law?

 

By definition:

 

"failure to use reasonable care, resulting in damage or injury to another"

 

It would be very very easy to clearly state the golfer was NOT aiming at the window, had no intention of hitting the ball in that direction, and had probably practiced or taken a lesson at some point to eliminate errant shots or improve his swing. All of these things would clearly show the golfer used "reasonable care" to prevent damage or injury.

 

I'd challenge you to show one case where a jury found a golfer liable for an "errant" shot.

 

Taken from "HomeAdvisor.com"

 

Quote:

Legal experts say being in the line of fire comes with the territory when you buy into a condo or homeowners community that borders a golf course.

"The golf coursesicon1.png were not built overnight," said Donna Berger, of Katzman, Garfinkel and Berger, one of the largest community association law firms in the state. "I live on a golf course, too, and have had to deal with damages. But as the law sees it, owners assume the risk when they move in." She said it is similar when home buyers purchase a home near an airport. It is difficult for them to file a lawsuit based on airplane noise.

 

I would never feel liable for damage to a home with an errant shot, I've worked for years on my golf game to improve my skills. I've never aimed at a home or intentionally tried to hit something other then the golf course. I would feel bad that my shot caused the damage, if the homeowner was irate I'd provide my name and info and let them work it out with my homeowners insurance....I am confident they'd never win.

 

In your example what if a person had been in the back yard and hit in the head and killed. Would a manslaughter charge be warranted? There is zero chance a jury would find the golfer liable who hit an "errant" shot.

 

Additional Info:

 

From: Jim Scavo is nationally recognized for his representation of clients involved in the resort, recreational property, real estate and club and travel industry

 

Quote:
golfers engaging in the ordinary playing of golf, including miss hit errant golf balls, will generally not have liability for damages resulting from the errant ball. Country clubs and operators of golf courses, including the owners associations, may generally enjoy the same status except in those cases that deal with the liability of the golf course operator for a nuisance or negligent design.
post #168 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

@Pretzel is not the OP.  And enough with the righteous indignation.  We get it.  Golfers need to be responsible regardless of their age or wealth, but homeowners don't need to be responsible regardless of their ago or wealth.  Cool.

 

I can build my house in the line of fire and put up no nets, or use no plexiglass on the windows, facing the tee and basically dare every person that comes through to break it and then expect them to pay for that.  How is that not irresponsible????

 

Of course it's irresponsible, but the thread is about what to do as the golfer who broke the window. (At least, I think that's still the topic.) 

 

As the golfer who broke a window, I would offer to replace it.

As a homeowner living on a golf course, I would expect to have to replace the windows myself.  (I don't live next to a course, but if I did...)

 

A lot of the indignation comes from the fact that some people have said, "If I break a window, I'm not going to pay for it because that's what you get by living next to a golf course and the law agrees with me."  But where does that stop?

"Yeah, I dented your car, but that's what you get for parking in a public lot."  

"Yeah, my kid broke your window, but that's what you get for living next door to a family with baseball-loving kids."

"Yeah, I broke your lawnmower, but that's what you get for letting me use it."

 

(Since I mentioned kids, no, I don't expect them to replace the window, but I would hope that the dad offers or maybe the kid mows my lawn for a while, or something.)  

 

No one is going to force you to replace a window you break while golfing, that has been established.  But why aren't you guys* offering to do it anyway!?

 

* "You guys" being the ones who say they won't replace it.

post #169 of 260

 

Not the best picture but you can see the houses right of the box. There are about 4-5 houses on the side. But to hit them it would have to be a very short slice, the last house is only about 180 out. Where the landing zone is on this hole the housing line flares further right and out of play. Most couldn't hit a ball that far, would have to be something in the range of a 350 yard slice to get there. The hole is dogleg right but not a cut the corner hole, big bunker on a mound over there so the shot is dead middle at the 150 marker and let the ball roll down. I hit a 268 yard drive last night and my ball was still in the fairway so got to poke it pretty good to hit through the fairway.

post #170 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretzel View Post
 

I've said repeatedly that I would go up and at least notify the owner of the property of what would happen. The fact that golf is a gentlemen's game does nothing to affect the fact that me, as a high schooler, cannot afford to buy someone a window. Since the law says I do not have to buy the person a window, I will not buy them a window because I cannot afford it and do not have to.

 

 

You must have missed the part where I'm a student in high school. It would currently be scientifically impossible for me to have had (or have within 9 months) any children.

 

This took me a minute to understand...but I think I got it now.

 

My apologies. :-P

post #171 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by krupa View Post
 

 

Of course it's irresponsible, but the thread is about what to do as the golfer who broke the window. (At least, I think that's still the topic.)

 

As the golfer who broke a window, I would offer to replace it.

As a homeowner living on a golf course, I would expect to have to replace the windows myself.  (I don't live next to a course, but if I did...)

 

A lot of the indignation comes from the fact that some people have said, "If I break a window, I'm not going to pay for it because that's what you get by living next to a golf course and the law agrees with me."  But where does that stop?

"Yeah, I dented your car, but that's what you get for parking in a public lot."

"Yeah, my kid broke your window, but that's what you get for living next door to a family with baseball-loving kids."

"Yeah, I broke your lawnmower, but that's what you get for letting me use it."

 

(Since I mentioned kids, no, I don't expect them to replace the window, but I would hope that the dad offers or maybe the kid mows my lawn for a while, or something.)

 

No one is going to force you to replace a window you break while golfing, that has been established.  But why aren't you guys* offering to do it anyway!?

 

* "You guys" being the ones who say they won't replace it.

And the frustration on the other side of the argument all comes from (I believe) the lack of any acknowledgement from some (not you) that the homeowner has a responsibility role here as well.

 

P.S.  Like @Slice of Life , I also didn't get what you were saying @Pretzel . :doh:  All I have to say to that is kudos, and have one on me.  (It's root beer, BTW) :beer:

post #172 of 260

It's my understanding that it varies by state, but generally the plaintiff would only be able to proceed under traditional negligence.  I used the example in the previous post that the excuse of age/wealth and also intention does not always absolve one from liability and more important, moral liability.  Many people do not intend to rear end the vehicle in front of them, they are almost always found negligent. 

 

The OP was asking if he did the right thing which I took to mean morally, not legally. 

 

Regarding the manslaughter example, that is completely different and you are adding in criminal to something that without intent is clearly a civil matter.

 

At the edge of my country club driving range, there is a large/tall net.  Immediately to the other side is private property that is not related to the golf course at all.  Years ago I'm told, before I joined, someone hit a shot and broke a windshield of a tractor or similar type vehicle.  Apparently the owner of the vehicle sued or threatened suit to the person that hit the ball as the golf course made it clear that they were not liable.  Ultimately the damage was paid for by the guy's insurance that hit the ball I am told.

 

I have an example although not identical, similar from my childhood.....playing baseball in an open field with houses around a ball was struck that broke a window on the house.  I was 14 at the time.  I mowed the homeowners lawn several times as payment for the window.  They were thankful that I came forward and I knew I did the right thing even though I did not have any money.  My parents also indicated I did right as they said that had I not said anything and they found out they would have walked me over to that house themselves.

 

I think that in most cases many homeowners would work with a minor if an incident like the OP posted about happened.  Especially considering the details/size of house/etc. 

post #173 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post
 

 

This took me a minute to understand...but I think I got it now.

 

My apologies. :-P


Unless, they had a premature baby early in the third trimester (maybe 6 months to have one?). . .

post #174 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihu View Post
 


Unless, they had a premature baby early in the third trimester (maybe 6 months to have one?). . .

Keep trying, you'll figure it out eventually. :-P

 


I ask again ... why are we giving courses a free pass on all of this just because they put up a sign?  Can I just put a sign around my neck when I play near houses that says the golf course is responsible for the shots I hit, or the developer who made the decision to put that house there?

post #175 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

And the frustration on the other side of the argument all comes from (I believe) the lack of any acknowledgement from some (not you) that the homeowner has a responsibility role here as well.

 

P.S.  Like @Slice of Life , I also didn't get what you were saying @Pretzel . :doh:  All I have to say to that is kudos, and have one on me.  (It's root beer, BTW) :beer:

 

It also took @Slice of Life's post for me to get what he was saying.

post #176 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

Keep trying, you'll figure it out eventually. :-P

 


I ask again ... why are we giving courses a free pass on all of this just because they put up a sign?  Can I just put a sign around my neck when I play near houses that says the golf course is responsible for the shots I hit, or the developer who made the decision to put that house there?

 

Sure, eventually :-P. . .I get that he is 15 or 16 years old, but I think the general thought is that he would have a girlfriend that would presumably have the baby.

 

The sign is probably just to discourage people from hitting houses. The courses are required to have insurance to operate. IDK about CO, but I asked one of the pro shop guys this morning at an LA course.

 

The OP should fuss up to what he did to the pro-shop, and there is a very slim chance he will have to pay for it.

post #177 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

@Pretzel is not the OP.  And enough with the righteous indignation.  We get it.  Golfers need to be responsible regardless of their age or wealth, but homeowners don't need to be responsible regardless of their ago or wealth.  Cool.

 

I can build my house in the line of fire and put up no nets, or use no plexiglass on the windows, facing the tee and basically dare every person that comes through to break it and then expect them to pay for that.  How is that not irresponsible????


You may get it and I may get it, but clearly not everyone here does based on the comments from the high school student.  Don't you believe that as a golfer you have a responsibility to educate younger golfers when you have the chance about doing the right thing? 

 

Just because a house is built in an area that is not optimal as your example indicates, does not mean that the owners of the home necessarily should be at fault if you were to for example hit their house with your golf shot.  Accidents happen but it sounds like you believe that it absolves you of any responsibility if you knowing the risks, hit a shot and caused damage/injury.  What if for example, there was a small child in that house in your example and it's head was at the window.  Would you still hit that shot and risk damage/injury that you may not be legally liable for just because you thought someone put a house in a bad spot?

 

It seems buildings are getting closer and closer on some courses and it's not a great idea, I agree with that 100%.  You are still the one hitting the golf ball by choice, so regardless of the scenario any potential damages are ultimately the PROXIMATE cause.  There may be contributory factors but the damage/injury would not have occurred had the golfer not hit the errant/shank shot.....

post #178 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post


Other than to say that if I were the home owner, I wouldn't accept payment, I've never once talked about the what the homeowner might, or might not expect.

Reading is fundamental..... a2_wink.gif

 

And I'm glad you realize that it should be the homeowner's financial responsibility to either protect the windows of the house they bought in the rough or pay for replacing them on occasion.  I just disagree with what I see as a silly, ritualistic idea of courtesy where the "right" thing to do is disingenuously offer to pay for replacing the window when I believe that it is in fact the homeowner who's totally responsible in this case and I wouldn't in fact pay for it.  If the homeowner's there they would presumably come outside to see what happened, and I'd surely apologize.  But I wouldn't offer to pay to replace the window cause I don't think it's my responsibility in this case.  

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by krupa View Post
 

 

Of course it's irresponsible, but the thread is about what to do as the golfer who broke the window. (At least, I think that's still the topic.) 

 

As the golfer who broke a window, I would offer to replace it.

As a homeowner living on a golf course, I would expect to have to replace the windows myself.  (I don't live next to a course, but if I did...)

 

A lot of the indignation comes from the fact that some people have said, "If I break a window, I'm not going to pay for it because that's what you get by living next to a golf course and the law agrees with me."  But where does that stop?

"Yeah, I dented your car, but that's what you get for parking in a public lot."  

"Yeah, my kid broke your window, but that's what you get for living next door to a family with baseball-loving kids."

"Yeah, I broke your lawnmower, but that's what you get for letting me use it."

 

(Since I mentioned kids, no, I don't expect them to replace the window, but I would hope that the dad offers or maybe the kid mows my lawn for a while, or something.)  

 

No one is going to force you to replace a window you break while golfing, that has been established.  But why aren't you guys* offering to do it anyway!?

 

* "You guys" being the ones who say they won't replace it.

 

This seems an obvious special case to me.  If you buy a house RIGHT NEXT to a hole on a golf course, it is YOUR responsibility to protect the house.  Nets, screens, unbreakable windows, whatever.  It just seems obviously totally different to me than my kid breaking my neighbor's window.  The lawnmower and car examples are of course totally ridiculous and have nothing to do with this debate at all.

post #179 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

I can build my house in the line of fire and put up no nets, or use no plexiglass on the windows, facing the tee and basically dare every person that comes through to break it and then expect them to pay for that.  How is that not irresponsible????

 

I don't think that there's a single instance in this entire thread where anyone has talked about what the homeowner should or should not "expect". 

 

In fact, if you read my very first post I said that whether the homeowner should accept an offer of payment is an entirely different discussion......and it is.  The discussion here is the about what the golfer should, or should not do.

 

 

Now, for my very favorite story that actually is on topic......

 

About a year ago, my group had just finished our round.  My buddy, a very solid 3 hcp, had had a really bad day, getting beat rather badly by me.  We're out in the parking lot.......WAY away from the course and clubhouse, putting our clubs into our cars.  He opens his trunk and pulls out his 10 year old son's little league bat and starts digging around in his golf bag.  I'm right next to him and immediately know what he's looking for.  Being the enabling type that I am, I call out and toss him a golf ball.  He tosses it up, and takes a mighty swing.  As he's doing so, I'm thinking, "nothing good can come of this"!  Full parking lot, expensive cars, big angry man, short little-league bat....I mean, what could go wrong, right?  He makes solid contact and the ball is GONE, just GONE.  I'm feeling relieved that nobody died, and start putting my clubs into my car.  A GOOD 10 seconds later, I hear, "OH SHIT!".......I look over, and my buddy is staring straight up in the air.  Another couple of seconds and he yells, "it's gonna hit MY freaking car!!!!".  Ball comes screaming down from the stratosphere, misses his BMW by exactly one space, and lands in the exact geometric center of the brand new $60,000+ Escalade parked next to him.....

 

I've never laughed so hard in my life.  Thought I was gonna wet myself.  A perfect golf ball sized dent in the exact center of the guy's roof.  Barely missed the glass sunroof.  You could see the dimples from the ball in the dent......fortunately, the paint wasn't cracked.  My buddy left a note and his number, but never heard from the guy.  I suppose he figured that a dent in the center of the roof just wasn't worth worrying about.  If it had been my car, I'd have had to call.....not to get paid, but just to hear the story of how some knucklehead actually was able to put a golf ball onto my roof from nowhere near the course!

post #180 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

Keep trying, you'll figure it out eventually. :-P

 


I ask again ... why are we giving courses a free pass on all of this just because they put up a sign?  Can I just put a sign around my neck when I play near houses that says the golf course is responsible for the shots I hit, or the developer who made the decision to put that house there?

 

Golfindad, I like the idea but it will never happen.  That is asking a golf course to take responsibility for the shots that it's players hit.  I work in insurance and actually some of our clients are golf courses.  They do have liability insurance and are occasionally dragged in to some odd losses.  Many courses already pay sky high insurance premiums just for the risks that they are responsible for (various injuries, slips/falls, golf cart dangers, food/hospitality risks, etc.).  Furthermore, I cannot see any insurer taking on that kind of risk (insuring the shots of golfers that they do not know and cannot underwrite considering all the potential consequences).  There are rare circumstances where the courses insurance will step up but those are increasingly rare which is why you see at just about every course signs making it clear to the golfers that they are responsible for any damage they cause.

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