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Tony Stewart Spins Out then Runs Over Fellow Driver, Kills Him - Page 4

post #55 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by zipazoid View Post
 

 

Let's assume that's what he tried to do. It resulted in the kid being killed. 

 

In other words, Stewart acted in a way that caused Ward's death.

 

That's called homicide. Doesn't matter if he 'didn't mean to,' but if it is proven that Stewart, in any way, manipulated his vehicle to target Ward, even if it was just trying to throw dirt on him, he acted maliciously. It be would as if I fired a warning shot over someone's head to scare them & the bullet ricocheted and killed the person. I'd be going to jail. 

Actually, it could be called manslaughter also, which is usually what a case like what you put forth would be considered.

 

I'm done with this thread anyway, a lot of assumptions of guilt by people who weren't there. I realize everyone has opinions and ideas. I'm not suggesting anyone is right or wrong, just that I don't have any reason to continue a discussion until more information comes out and I prefer to consider someone innocent until shown otherwise.

post #56 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by zipazoid View Post

Let's assume that's what he tried to do. It resulted in the kid being killed. 

In other words, Stewart acted in a way that caused Ward's death.

That's called homicide. Doesn't matter if he 'didn't mean to,' but if it is proven that Stewart, in any way, manipulated his vehicle to target Ward, even if it was just trying to throw dirt on him, he acted maliciously. It be would as if I fired a warning shot over someone's head to scare them & the bullet ricocheted and killed the person. I'd be going to jail. 
But in a very similar argument to the one over in the thread about breaking a house window, I would suggest that a large amount of negligence (read: more) in this instance has to fall on the deceased. I mean, he ran towards a car that is coming around a turn on a track made out of dirt.

P.S. Here at my office at lunchtime, or after work, if I am walking back from lunch while one of my friends is leaving, he will oftentimes jokingly swerve toward me like hes going to hit me, and when roles are reversed I do the same. Now, we're on a side street going 10 mph granted, but I'd still be inclined to think this situation is closer to that than it is to something dark and sinister. After all, the kid is 20 and Tony Stewart spends the vast majority of his time in a Sprint Cup car. How much interaction could the two of them possibly have had prior to this instance? My gut tells me it was more of a hazing, dirt spraying type of thing. The "veteran teaching a new kid a lesson" kind of deal.

This type of thing happens in baseball too. I rookie hotshot diving across the plate too much because he's fearless and the pitchers need to get him to respect the plate a little more so they brush him back, maybe even hit him a few times, to teach him a lesson. What happens that one time that a pitcher lets one of those get away from him and hits the kid in the temple and kills him? Does he deserve to be considered a murderer?
post #57 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremie Boop View Post
 

Actually, it could be called manslaughter also, which is usually what a case like what you put forth would be considered.

Just for the record though ... technically, manslaughter IS homicide.

 

Homicide is simply the act of killing somebody.  Murder 1, murder 2, manslaughter, etc, etc, are all specific types of homicide.

post #58 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

Just for the record though ... technically, manslaughter IS homicide.

 

Homicide is simply the act of killing somebody.  Murder 1, murder 2, manslaughter, etc, etc, are all specific types of homicide.

Ah, yes, my bad there. I was thinking he said murder instead of homicide. I apologize.

post #59 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post


This type of thing happens in baseball too. I rookie hotshot diving across the plate too much because he's fearless and the pitchers need to get him to respect the plate a little more so they brush him back, maybe even hit him a few times, to teach him a lesson. What happens that one time that a pitcher lets one of those get away from him and hits the kid in the temple and kills him? Does he deserve to be considered a murderer?

 

Absolutely - or a homicide-er or manslaughter-er. He acted in a manner that killed someone. 

 

You can't hide behind the "sport" as an excuse for a tragedy.

 

I mean, the pitcher would swear up & down, and likely pass a polygraph stating he never meant to hurt the batter. Just like, perhaps, Stewart would. 

 

But that doesn't matter. "I didn't mean to hurt him" is never a viable excuse. It would change the conviction from murder to manslaughter perhaps, but a crime was still committed.

post #60 of 82

Watched the video, and while it's hard to judge any intent on Stewart's side one thing is certain and that is that Ward was absolutely INSANE to do what he did in the moments leading up to his death. Not only did he get out of his car (or whatever the hell that thingy is) but it almost appears like he's trying to get in Stewart's way. Real tragedy and I feel for his family but there is a lesson to be learned here - STAY IN YOUR CAR, DON'T GO RUNNING INTO THE MIDDLE OF THE TRACK! 

post #61 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by zipazoid View Post
 

 

Absolutely - or a homicide-er or manslaughter-er. He acted in a manner that killed someone.

 

You can't hide behind the "sport" as an excuse for a tragedy.

 

I mean, the pitcher would swear up & down, and likely pass a polygraph stating he never meant to hurt the batter. Just like, perhaps, Stewart would.

 

But that doesn't matter. "I didn't mean to hurt him" is never a viable excuse. It would change the conviction from murder to manslaughter perhaps, but a crime was still committed.

 

Sorry to disagree with you, but when you sign up to play a violent, dangerous game for a living, the rules change. Would you sue a football player for aggravated assault if he put an aggressive hit on a wide receiver coming across the middle and the guy sustained a major injury? Pitching inside to a batter crowding the plate is part of the game of baseball. So are hockey fights (as much as I hate them), violent hits in football, slide tackles in soccer, hard fouls in basketball... If a guy puts a hard foul on LeBron driving to the hoop and LeBron hits the ground hard and is paralyzed, is that aggravated assault? If so, Bill Laimbeer would have a lifetime sentence in a maximum security prison right now for 99 counts of attempted murder.

 

If someone does something outside the scope of the game, I think that makes it a viable comparison. If a guy charges the mound with a bat and beats the stuffing out of a pitcher and puts him into a coma, for example, that would be a criminal matter to me. If it is proven that Tony Stewart deliberately drove his car at the guy intending to hit him, that's a crime to me. I think the poor kid leaving his vehicle and moving toward Stewart will forever make this a tough case to prove.

post #62 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmoan2 View Post
 

 

Sorry to disagree with you, but when you sign up to play a violent, dangerous game for a living, the rules change. Would you sue a football player for aggravated assault if he put an aggressive hit on a wide receiver coming across the middle and the guy sustained a major injury? Pitching inside to a batter crowding the plate is part of the game of baseball. So are hockey fights (as much as I hate them), violent hits in football, slide tackles in soccer, hard fouls in basketball... If a guy puts a hard foul on LeBron driving to the hoop and LeBron hits the ground hard and is paralyzed, is that aggravated assault? If so, Bill Laimbeer would have a lifetime sentence in a maximum security prison right now for 99 counts of attempted murder.

 

If someone does something outside the scope of the game, I think that makes it a viable comparison. If a guy charges the mound with a bat and beats the stuffing out of a pitcher and puts him into a coma, for example, that would be a criminal matter to me. If it is proven that Tony Stewart deliberately drove his car at the guy intending to hit him, that's a crime to me. I think the poor kid leaving his vehicle and moving toward Stewart will forever make this a tough case to prove.

 

We have a precedent for that - Darryl Stingley. And Jack Tatum did not go to jail for it.

 

But that's injuring a competitor. I'm talking about killing one. Nowhere in any of those sports, or in the examples you provided, did the player lose his life. And even if he did - let's say Stingley died the next day from Tatum's hit - you couldn't convict Tatum of trying to kill Stingley. That's football. It's contact sport. Stingley was running a route (doing his job), and Tatum hit him (doing his job).

 

In the Stewart/Ward situation, you had one party unprotected on a track (which, again, I admit was pretty stupid but also irrelevant) versus the other party in a protected, motorized vehicle. Which, if proven, he used to run him over with. It is not the nature of Sprint Racing to run over unprotected drivers. 

 

That's not 'part of the sport.' So that basically negates that argument. Your second paragraph is what, to me, governs what happened Saturday night.

post #63 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmoan2 View Post
 

 

Sorry to disagree with you, but when you sign up to play a violent, dangerous game for a living, the rules change. Would you sue a football player for aggravated assault if he put an aggressive hit on a wide receiver coming across the middle and the guy sustained a major injury? Pitching inside to a batter crowding the plate is part of the game of baseball. So are hockey fights (as much as I hate them), violent hits in football, slide tackles in soccer, hard fouls in basketball... If a guy puts a hard foul on LeBron driving to the hoop and LeBron hits the ground hard and is paralyzed, is that aggravated assault? If so, Bill Laimbeer would have a lifetime sentence in a maximum security prison right now for 99 counts of attempted murder.

 

If someone does something outside the scope of the game, I think that makes it a viable comparison. If a guy charges the mound with a bat and beats the stuffing out of a pitcher and puts him into a coma, for example, that would be a criminal matter to me. If it is proven that Tony Stewart deliberately drove his car at the guy intending to hit him, that's a crime to me. I think the poor kid leaving his vehicle and moving toward Stewart will forever make this a tough case to prove.

I had written out three completely different responses to @zipazoid 's post.  One talking about punishing consequences instead of actions with Todd Bertuzzi as an example, one talking about the baseball pitchers thoughts leading up to the pitch and how that matters, then one pondering how this would be viewed if the kid died during the actual accident that was supposedly done on purpose.  (And I even thought about a fourth response similar to your first sentence - where I had boxing in mind.)

 

None of them quite came out like I wanted.

 

But, basically, I agree with you here.  There is a line that has to be crossed for it to go from "tragedy related to risks of the sport" to "negligent criminal act."  Being killed in the ring by Ray Mancini falls into the first category, your batter charging the mound scenario falls into the second, and Tony Stewart is probably lost somewhere in the middle.  I also agree that the kid moving towards Stewarts car pushes the needle much further towards "tragedy related."  (Imagine if the kid was standing still next to his car and still Stewart came around hit him.  That would definitely change everything)

post #64 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by zipazoid View Post
 

 

We have a precedent for that - Darryl Stingley. And Jack Tatum did not go to jail for it.

 

But that's injuring a competitor. I'm talking about killing one. Nowhere in any of those sports, or in the examples you provided, did the player lose his life. And even if he did - let's say Stingley died the next day from Tatum's hit - you couldn't convict Tatum of trying to kill Stingley. That's football. It's contact sport. Stingley was running a route (doing his job), and Tatum hit him (doing his job).

 

In the Stewart/Ward situation, you had one party unprotected on a track (which, again, I admit was pretty stupid but also irrelevant) versus the other party in a protected, motorized vehicle. Which, if proven, he used to run him over with. It is not the nature of Sprint Racing to run over unprotected drivers.

 

That's not 'part of the sport.' So that basically negates that argument. Your second paragraph is what, to me, governs what happened Saturday night.

 

Kinda confused because you agreed with what I said pretty much. The reason for paragraph one was that you claimed if a baseball pitcher uncorked a wild pitch and killed a batter, he could be charged with manslaughter. I don't agree. Pitching inside and even beaning an opposing player in retaliation is part of the sport.

post #65 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmoan2 View Post
 

 

Kinda confused because you agreed with what I said pretty much. The reason for paragraph one was that you claimed if a baseball pitcher uncorked a wild pitch and killed a batter, he could be charged with manslaughter. I don't agree. Pitching inside and even beaning an opposing player in retaliation is part of the sport.

 

But not in the temple. If they're gonna hit the batter it's below the shoulders. If some pitcher threw 95mph heat straight at a batter's head, you're damn right I would try to bring him up on criminal charges. They're professionals. They know where to place a pitch.

 

Playing a sport does not give anyone the right to intentionally hurt/kill anyone. Gawd, have we lost that perspective?

post #66 of 82
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zipazoid View Post

But not in the temple. If they're gonna hit the batter it's below the waist. If some pitcher threw 95mph heat straight at a batter's head, you're damn right I would try to bring him up on criminal charges. They're professionals. They know where to place a pitch.

Playing a sport does not give anyone the right to intentionally hurt/kill anyone. Gawd, have we lost that perspective?
Well Ray Chapman died after being hit in the head. No charges. Of course, this was 1919.
post #67 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by RJH999 View Post


Well Ray Chapman died after being hit in the head. No charges. Of course, this was 1919.

 

I know. I'm from the Cleveland area. Still to this day the only player ever to die from a baseball injury. Of course, it's a Cleveland player.

 

The story goes, he was hit so hard by the pitch, the third baseman actually fielded the ball & threw it to first, thinking Chapman actually hit the ball.

post #68 of 82
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zipazoid View Post

I know. I'm from the Cleveland area. Still to this day the only player ever to die from a baseball injury. Of course, it's a Cleveland player.
Oh, Cleveland. You and your shenanigans. Oh, Craig Ehlo.
post #69 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by RJH999 View Post


Oh, Cleveland. You and your shenanigans. Oh, Craig Ehlo.

 

Please don't undo years of therapy. :-P

post #70 of 82
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zipazoid View Post

Please don't undo years of therapy. b2_tongue.gif
BUT HEY YOU NOW HAVE LEBRON.
post #71 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by RJH999 View Post


BUT HEY YOU NOW HAVE LEBRON.

 

With Cleveland's luck, he'll cramp up in the first game & have to get his leg amputated. 

post #72 of 82

Asked my non-golfing, big-time racing fan friend what he thought.  His opinion was that Stewart did not do anything intentional to try and hit him or even spray mud on him, but was actually REACTING to the braking/swerving of the car in front of him, who was braking/swerving to avoid the kid running at his car.

 

He still says it could have been avoided and some of the blame falls on Stewart.

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