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Rory has no star power - Page 4

post #55 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aguirre View Post

Tiger was unique not just because of his extraordinary talent, but because of his ethnicity in a sport dominated by white men.  He's so unique that it's probably impossible to replicate.

But I am sooooo tired of this talk about moving the needle, or worse yet "saving golf."  The PGA Tour has been around for almost 100 years.  It's not going anywhere.  I'm quite comfortable with letting the competitions play out, and if a dominant superstar separates himself, so be it.  I'll still be watching.  

Everyone talks about Tiger bringing in the casual golf fan.  That's true, but it doesn't tell the whole story.  Rory and Phil draw in the casual golf fan.   Tiger drew in PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT EVEN GOLF FANS.  That just isn't going to happen often, if ever again.
That's why you gotta love Vijay Singh. Who doesn't like a good fijian?
post #56 of 192

Good point. Els did it for a bit (African), Vijay (fiji), Norman (aussie).

 

One of the keys isnt where youre from but more where you play. Rory still embraces the European tour. If he had pledged his time completely to the PGA Tour the attention would be greater. 

 

Rory wont have Tiger starpower but no one will ever have that again. So its not fair to compare.

 

All the game needs is a good era with a mix of different styles. It doesnt need a runaway. If Speith, Day, Fowler and Rory go at it for 10-15 years that will get enough of a rivalry with different personalities. Phil and Tiger are so polarizing that it worked. You sprinkled in Sergio, Els, Vijay, Duval, Furyk, a Daly character and a dozen other guys during the 90s-2000s era and it was good entertainment. The next era just needs that elite group and some fun guys mixed in and itll draw.

post #57 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aguirre View Post
 

Tiger was unique not just because of his extraordinary talent, but because of his ethnicity in a sport dominated by white men.  He's so unique that it's probably impossible to replicate.

 

 

I think this is very true, as Tiger threatened to breakdown barriers. Is there really any enduring evidence that this has happened on any scale though? We were left with the impression that Tiger took the game to new areas, but that these new 'followers' (I won't necessarily call them fans) were quite a soft constituency more inclined to watch the Television and shout "in the hole" every ten minutes. If they aren't participating beyond viewing there is a ceiling on their contribution, and like any fickle consumer, they can turn off as quickly as they tuned in.

 

I think to some extent we were also left with the impression that traditional America embraced Phil Mickelson as their natural standard bearer, and a sort of rivalry developed

 

This new viewing cohort however meant that networks could go to advertisers with inflated rate cards, yet at the time when televsion audiences grew on the Tiger boom, golf playing was starting to fall. The two didn't correlate perfectly, but the relationship is more complicated, possibly off-set by time lags.

 

2000-01 was the peak for the number of rounds played and its declined every year since. It means that those who like to use the credit crunch as the explanation have to explain the 7-8 years of decline in between, and also the Tigersists would need to acknowledge that he was competitive throuhgout this period too, and indeed, even starting to close in on Jack. Ironically, the latest data thats starting to emerge for 2014 suggests that this year will see the first reversal of the trend and witness an increase in participation (largely in the north). It's difficult to argue that Tiger can be held responsible for this given that he's been invisible for the best of the season and a shadow of his former self

 

 

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by skydog View Post
 

 

Is he a star in the golf world? Absolutely. But that doesn't mean he will be a star in this country's sports scene- measured by his ability to draw viewers and interest in the game from casual sports fans. If Rory had been gunning it out on the back nine with Stenson and Day yesterday (no Phil or Rickie), do you really think the ratings would be good?

 

I'm sure this is true, and equally I'm inclined to ask if the number of people staying up until passed 02.00 in the morning in the UK, would have been as high were it not for American opposition. I recall people watching Nick Faldo (and he was never particularly popular) but defeating the American behmoth was and remains so today (hence why we put a much greater emphasis on the RC, and why your standard bearers now appear to be looking at the Olympics, and can't even manage to make a small detour to Gleneagles to play the course in the company of their Captain)

 

I should say that Sky leant Sunday an occasional Ryder Cup narrative, "can the two Americans chase down Rory" but then Sky do host the RC so have a clear commercial incentive 

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by skydog View Post
 

I think the best case scenario for golf over the next decade is for a rivalry to continue to build between Rory and the likes of Rickie and/or Spieth, etc. where Rory plays the villian foil to the American stars because he will never be a true superstar in this country regardless of how many majors he wins (and I think he wins 10+).

 

I think this is likely to be the case. Sport needs competition and a compelling narrative to accompany it. The ingredients are there

 

I'm not so sure Rory is going to be the villian though. I suspect he's one of the more adoptable imports and it will be interesting to see how that evolves. Whose to say he doesn't marry American? So far as I can observe Rory doesn't have the level of indifference towards America and Americans that some other Europeans have exhibited (and perhaps it shows up in his Ryder Cup record too)

 

The golfer who is perhaps missing in all this (largely because he self destructed last week) is Bubba. I'm sure he's part of this mix going forward, and he's got the capacity to be a bigger villian than Rory's nationality. Rory arguably carries an even bigger burden in Ulster actually. Barry McGuigan cut across the communities but a boxers shelf-life is precarious. Rory is the first sports star from the post peace period

 

I'm at a bit of a loss to understand a few things though

 

Why do Americans want to watch Tiger Woods smash a course up? Once, maybe even twice, i can see the attraction of, as what you're wiitnessing is someone pushing new boundaries, but after that its boring without competition

 

Related to this, I don't understand your national concern for viewing figures (particularly the Ryder Cup) ahead of winning it. I've read this so many times now it can't be the deraanged bleating of one or two people out in the ether of cyberspace

 

Surely if you're successful, this drives viewing figures (unless of course you're British tennis fan) they turned out decade after decade

 

I think what we're likely to see is Mickelson and Tigers competitive careers finish more or less simultaneously despite Phil being older

 

Rory and Rickety are both a sight more engaging indviduals than Tiger ever will be, and Rickey in particular as a certain star appeal potential to him. I think Bubba is on the outside a bit, but that's no bad thing for the marketing boys to get stuck into. I think Dubuisson has the looks, the moody mystique, and the cavalier game to become a factor if he can find another 5% in his game. Jordan looks a little bit like the 'continuity Mickelson candidate'

 

I think the biggest threat going forward is America's failure to dominate the sport. Put simply American's are not particularly good losers, and if they can't win they'll turn away (as they have done in the sports I've already mentioned) or corrale themselves in domestic sports where they can generate all the hype they want and worship these false gods of qualified achievement. As the post Agassi/ Sampras period has shown, this can happen in just half of a generation

 

The point here is that international sport is harder to win at, as it should be, but the emtional rewards for doing so are much more enriching for doing so. Why do i say that? Well largely because we've invented and exported more sports than any single country on the planet. During their formative years we dominate them, but as other countries embrace them they start to bring their own expertise to bear. Ultimately we have to accept our place in the new world order, but even when things do settle down, there are still countries who will try doubly hard to beat us, as if it still means something. I think America and American golfers will always be in the global cross-hairs as the country that most others will want to take down, and that lends the game a lot by way of focus

post #58 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris223 View Post
 

I don't think he will be either.  I want to see an American win tournaments.  I can't believe how pathetic we look right now against the top players from around the world.  We get spanked in the Ryder Cup year after year.  I don't particularly like Rory either.  Don't hate him, but don't particularly like him.  Like the OP said - he doesn't have the charisma that can attract the non-hardcore golf fan to watch or play.  I have always been an enormous Phil fan - because Phil makes golf worth watching.  Much the way Tiger did back in his prime although his was strictly because of his golf shots, he didn't have much of a personality like Phil.  I can watch Rory, but he's certainly a lot more boring to watch than say Rickie Fowler, Dustin Johnson or Phil.  I also get bored of watching Rory run away with tournaments.  Rory may turn out to be a dominant player and that's all nice, I just hope Rickie or Speith can start playing at an elite level consistently too.  It's boring to watch Rory make the turn at a major with a 5 shot lead.

I have no idea who you're watching, Rory is incredibly exciting to watch. 

 

In fact how is DJ any more exciting? Is it just because he's American? That dude has the most god-awful boring attire/interviews/celebrations. Is it just because he hits the long ball? Because oh yeah, Rory is constantly well over 310 yards average driving. Oh and he has great candid interviews, albiet Phil's are the best, Rickie is quite boring behind the mic. Did you see Rickie's interview during the rain delay? Someone was throwing cookies at him, oh yeah, that was Rory...because Rickie was being BORING.

 

You've got an opinion and I've got one, my opinion is that you're just a hater for anyone not american. That's lame but oh well.

 

Rory has more charisma than Rickie and DJ put together, Rickie just happens to look cool in wild clothing.  

post #59 of 192

DJ is in my opinion one of the most bland and boring top players in recent years.

post #60 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeph View Post

DJ is in my opinion one of the most bland and boring top players in recent years.
No doubt, about as interesting as a fence post. Hits it long for sure but not exactly a captivating individual.
post #61 of 192
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeph View Post
 

DJ is in my opinion one of the most bland and boring top players in recent years.

 

All the mary jane probably doens't help that cause.

 

And I don't think Rory is a boring player per se, but when his game is on, it can be really boring to watch (unless you're really rooting for him) because every hole is pretty much the same- bomb down the middle---> wedge to 13 feet or less---> miss or make birdie putt (50/50). It's impressive no doubt, but isn't exciting. When Tiger was dominating, he would still spray plenty of his drives and then pull out amazing recovery shots, which are by far the most exciting shots in golf. Watching golf is most exciting when you never know what kind of shot you're going to get....when Rory's game is on, you pretty much know exactly what you're going to get every time.

post #62 of 192

Everybody I know likes Rory just fine and a huge majority in the break room at work Sunday afternoon were pulling for Rory.

 

My wife's boss (an elderly woman) called her yesterday as we were walking and asked her if she watched the tournament and was very excited that Rory won.

 

The majority of guys at the golf course have been "Rory fans" for a couple of years because they think he's a good kid.

 

And BTW, I live in the U.S.

 

In events like the Ryder Cup all of those people will root for the U.S.

 

Rory can't bring in millions of African American viewers that don't play golf the way Tiger did (nothing he can do about that) but if he continues this run he will continue to draw fans here.

 

We like winners.

post #63 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by skydog View Post
 

 When Tiger was dominating, he would still spray plenty of his drives and then pull out amazing recovery shots, which are by far the most exciting shots in golf.

Hmmmm, I wonder if we can get the numbers on this. Because what I recall is Tiger hitting the fairway A LOT in his twenties when he dominated. 

post #64 of 192
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crim View Post
 

Hmmmm, I wonder if we can get the numbers on this. Because what I recall is Tiger hitting the fairway A LOT in his twenties when he dominated.

 

I'm sure someone will provide stats to dispute my point. I don't have them but I would be quite confident in saying that when Rory's on, his driving is more consistent than Tiger's ever was. Either way, I'm guessing you remember Tiger's unbelievable recovery shots a lot more than you remember the countless 490 par 4 he went driver-wedge-make 8 foot putt.

post #65 of 192

Looking at this list of "most pga tour wins":

 

1 Sam Snead H 1912–2002  United States 82 7 1936–1965 30
2 Tiger Woods 1975–  United States 79 14 1996–2013 18
3 Jack Nicklaus H 1940–  United States 73 18 1962–1986 25
4 Ben Hogan H 1912–1997  United States 64 9 1938–1959 22
5 Arnold Palmer H 1929–  United States 62 7 1955–1973 19
               

 

All the names on this list are household names, transcend the world of golf, etc. 

 

If Rory bumps one of these guys from the list  - he will be a huge star, transcend golf, etc, etc. 

 

Sure - there are famous golfers who've won a lot less.  And some of those golfers are more famous than others on the list who have won more.  So maybe that's where "star power" comes in to play . . . when the popularity of a golfer transcends his ability as a golfer.   But that's not what I'm thinking for Rory in terms of ultimate potential.  I think he has the *potential* to bump one of these guys from the list . .whether he will do it, of course, is another story.  If he doesn't then I guess he will need "star power".  

post #66 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmazingWhacker View Post
 

Looking at this list of "most pga tour wins":

 

1 Sam Snead H 1912–2002  United States 82 7 1936–1965 30
2 Tiger Woods 1975–  United States 79 14 1996–2013 18
3 Jack Nicklaus H 1940–  United States 73 18 1962–1986 25
4 Ben Hogan H 1912–1997  United States 64 9 1938–1959 22
5 Arnold Palmer H 1929–  United States 62 7 1955–1973 19
               

 

 

 

And one of the players on that list was called the 'Wee Ice Mon' for his total lack of emotion on the course. He was considered the closest thing to a human golfing machine the game has known, and when his name is invoked, it is almost with deific reverence. 

 

He certainly didn't possess the qualities you look for in "Star Power," but Ben Hogan was considered damn near a god. 

 

If Rory is talented/fortunate enough to join that short list, he will have similar adjectives attached. 

post #67 of 192
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmazingWhacker View Post
 

Looking at this list of "most pga tour wins":

 

1 Sam Snead H 1912–2002  United States 82 7 1936–1965 30
2 Tiger Woods 1975–  United States 79 14 1996–2013 18
3 Jack Nicklaus H 1940–  United States 73 18 1962–1986 25
4 Ben Hogan H 1912–1997  United States 64 9 1938–1959 22
5 Arnold Palmer H 1929–  United States 62 7 1955–1973 19
               

 

All the names on this list are household names, transcend the world of golf, etc.

 

If Rory bumps one of these guys from the list  - he will be a huge star, transcend golf, etc, etc.

 

Sure - there are famous golfers who've won a lot less.  And some of those golfers are more famous than others on the list who have won more.  So maybe that's where "star power" comes in to play . . . when the popularity of a golfer transcends his ability as a golfer.   But that's not what I'm thinking for Rory in terms of ultimate potential.  I think he has the *potential* to bump one of these guys from the list . .whether he will do it, of course, is another story.  If he doesn't then I guess he will need "star power".

 

Agree with all this. To me Arnie and Norman are the two strongest examples of that 'star power' factor. Their charisma and ability to ability to connect with fans and the sports world most definitely transcended their golf games. My wife, who knew little about sports and less about golf when we first met, knew who Arnie and Greg Norman were...she had never heard of Jack Nicklaus. Jack became a star because of his amazing career on the course, nothing more. He lacked the "It' factor that Arnie and Norman had but made up for that by winning.

post #68 of 192

Rory is the outlaw who speaks softly but carries a big stick ...

 

 

 

... personally, I think he's already endeared himself to the golf world - he's a nice guy, a humble guy, and a fierce competitor when in the hunt ... I don't think he has to worry about star power, he's got it already

post #69 of 192

McIlroy has enough 'star power' to start this thread.

 

Fact - Worldwide, Nike are kicking Callaway and Taylor Made's ass with club sales - the VRX Coverts are flying out of the door. Is this based on Tiger Woods? Charl Schwartzl? No.

 

Fact - White Middle-Class Americans love watching Tiger twist in the wind. A freakshow. An Afro-Asian American who sleeps with white women and plays golf like a Viking God was always due a kicking, and as soon as his behaviour and body began to deteriorate, the WASP's were in on him like vultures on roadkill. Hell, I was at Augusta in 2011 and the cry's of ''Go Tiger'' were mixed with ''Go Rachel'' and ''Go PornDog''. There's a lot of schadenfreude (look it up) or what the Australians call the tall poppy syndrome about Americans that you don't see around the rest of the world.

 

Fact - Fowler is good, but he's not got the nuts. When the chips were down on the back 9 on Sunday, Fowler shot par golf on a course with two reachable par 5's and a whole host of short par 4 with greens like dartboards. That said, the most likeable of the current crop.

 

Fact - Everyone knows who Rory McIlroy is. His appeal is that he's humble but tough. A likeable assassin. Get used to him lifting the silver. As someone said, McIlroy moves the needle because it's in his pocket. But I'm guessing he's fine with the perception he doesn't move the needle - I'm guessing he quite likes the idea of Woods taking all of the 'TMZ' attention - he's had that and learnt from it.

 

Fact - If you want to look at why Americans do not 'move the needle', just look at Bubba. As bigger farkwit on and off the course as you will meet. Look at DJ, sniffing coke off of PG's puta. Jimmy Walker and his three chins, wearing a shirt his wife stitched together. Look at Spieth, or WhiteBread as we call him, so bland is he. Look at Keegan Bradley...should'nt be a problem, he takes so long. Keegan, the grown up kid from 'The Omen'. None of these guys get it done like Mickelson, who will have his work cut out as the real team captain at Gleneagles.

 

Fact - World Golf is not all about America. Can tell you straight - Rory McIlroy is welcome all around the world, world superstar. Bubba Watson...anyway.

 

I really was hoping that Fowler would win on Sunday, to get away from the continual press speculation and media saturation of Tiger stories. Alas, it still continues.

post #70 of 192

Reading what Rory is quoted as having said this morning, he seems to be suggesting for the first time that he felt that his very name on the leaderboard scarred the Americans. I don't think Rory had ever really considered this possible before now

 

"I really felt like it was (a factor) The guys, they made bogeys - Rickie on 14 and 16; Phil on 16. Did my name on the leaderboard in any way affect them? It had to do something, especially with the play I have produced over the last few weeks. It is another thing to have in my locker - knowing that when I get myself on the leaderboard, it can maybe effect the guys"

 

He then goes onto talk about how he wants to become the talisman of Europe's Ryder Cup team

 

It sounds to me as if Rory is just starting to realise that he's moving into the next stage, where people start to paly his reputation and that his very presence cans tart to intimidate. Rickie Fowler in particular needs to get this monkey off his back quickly otherwise he could get sucked into the vortex

 

My initial reaction watching was that the advantage was with Rickie and Phil as they played ahead of Rory and certainly in the middle holes at least where they could hold him up, played well, and all Rory could do was to hope to match them as the crowd responded to them. It wasn't as if Weisberger helped pull Rory along either. However, it kind of struck me as they went for home that a bti of a Butch Cassidy and Sundance thing went on. There's a bit in the film where having tried everything to shake of their pursuers they look over their shoulder and say "who are these guys" as it becomes obvious they're still there. In the end Rory must have seemed like a giant bird of prey looking over them back down the fairway and snapping at their heels. I think it's possible that his burgeoning reputation might have started to take a hand on events and both players found that they gradually became overtaken

post #71 of 192
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monte the Bear View Post
 

McIlroy has enough 'star power' to start this thread.

 

Fact - Worldwide, Nike are kicking Callaway and Taylor Made's ass with club sales - the VRX Coverts are flying out of the door. Is this based on Tiger Woods? Charl Schwartzl? No.

 

Fact - White Middle-Class Americans love watching Tiger twist in the wind. A freakshow. An Afro-Asian American who sleeps with white women and plays golf like a Viking God was always due a kicking, and as soon as his behaviour and body began to deteriorate, the WASP's were in on him like vultures on roadkill. Hell, I was at Augusta in 2011 and the cry's of ''Go Tiger'' were mixed with ''Go Rachel'' and ''Go PornDog''. There's a lot of schadenfreude (look it up) or what the Australians call the tall poppy syndrome about Americans that you don't see around the rest of the world.

 

Fact - Fowler is good, but he's not got the nuts. When the chips were down on the back 9 on Sunday, Fowler shot par golf on a course with two reachable par 5's and a whole host of short par 4 with greens like dartboards. That said, the most likeable of the current crop.

 

Fact - Everyone knows who Rory McIlroy is. His appeal is that he's humble but tough. A likeable assassin. Get used to him lifting the silver. As someone said, McIlroy moves the needle because it's in his pocket. But I'm guessing he's fine with the perception he doesn't move the needle - I'm guessing he quite likes the idea of Woods taking all of the 'TMZ' attention - he's had that and learnt from it.

 

Fact - If you want to look at why Americans do not 'move the needle', just look at Bubba. As bigger farkwit on and off the course as you will meet. Look at DJ, sniffing coke off of PG's puta. Jimmy Walker and his three chins, wearing a shirt his wife stitched together. Look at Spieth, or WhiteBread as we call him, so bland is he. Look at Keegan Bradley...should'nt be a problem, he takes so long. Keegan, the grown up kid from 'The Omen'. None of these guys get it done like Mickelson, who will have his work cut out as the real team captain at Gleneagles.

 

Fact - World Golf is not all about America. Can tell you straight - Rory McIlroy is welcome all around the world, world superstar. Bubba Watson...anyway.

 

I really was hoping that Fowler would win on Sunday, to get away from the continual press speculation and media saturation of Tiger stories. Alas, it still continues.

 

 

First off...derail much? Second off, most americans on here (including myself) don't like Bubba. Third, if you'd like to turn this into a bash american golf post, I'm quite confident we can turn the tables here because the likes of Donald, Westwood, and Poulter would give us more than enough underachieving ammunition to start. Nick Faldo is the greatest golfer your continent has ever had. That's just sad.

post #72 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crim View Post

Hmmmm, I wonder if we can get the numbers on this. Because what I recall is Tiger hitting the fairway A LOT in his twenties when he dominated. 

2004-2007 fw hit was 57.8%. There was a stat analysis I found that showed the entire tour got longer since 2000 and the average fw hit % decreased. Tiger had lost more accuracy then the tour average and his distance increase was also lower then average. The article was showing Tigers recovery skills were better then average.
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