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When ball on path, can i choose 'nearest point of relief'? - Page 2

post #19 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkolo View Post
 

OK, that makes sense. You don't go through the relief process twice, you just treat it as one big obstruction is my understanding then. 

 

Thank you!

 

Hmmm.  Thinking this back over, I'm not 100% sure I'm right.  If the fence is one you don't get free relief from, does it still count as part of what can obstruct your stance/swing while taking relief from a different obstruction from which you do get free relief?  In practice I know the kind of wood stake + string knee high fence you're talking about and it's pretty much always removable.  But I'm not 100% sure in the other case anymore.  Any more rules-knowledgable guys wanna chime in?

post #20 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdl View Post
 

 

Hmmm.  Thinking this back over, I'm not 100% sure I'm right.  If the fence is one you don't get free relief from, does it still count as part of what can obstruct your stance/swing while taking relief from a different obstruction from which you do get free relief?  In practice I know the kind of wood stake + string knee high fence you're talking about and it's pretty much always removable.  But I'm not 100% sure in the other case anymore.  Any more rules-knowledgable guys wanna chime in?

 

 

Yeah, I think my question basically boils down to order of operations because this seems like a stacking rules issue. I think the fence is an immovable obstruction in its own right, as is the cart path. Basically, I think there's three possibilities that I can see:

 

1) Find the closest point that has you clear of the cart path, as if the fence didn't exist, even though in reality your legs might be pushing up against those posts / rope or be blocked entirely, and then go one club length from there

2) Find the closest point that has you clear of both the cart path and the fence / rope, then go one club length from there

3) Find the closest point that has you clear of the cart path, then find the nearest point that gives you relief from the fence as well, then take your one club length.

 

I'm trying to picture whether 2 and 3 could put you in a slightly different spot, and I think they might, which is why I list them separately. In any event, I think they're analytically different. 

 

My intuition is that it's choice 1 because the NPR from the cart path is only a place you'd theoretically be able to hit from free of the cart path, and you only care about the fence if it affects you once you've taken your stance after completing the relief procedures (drop one club length, etc). 

 

Quote:
 Nearest Point Of Relief

The “nearest point of relief” is the reference point for taking relief without penalty from interference by an immovable obstruction(Rule 24-2), an abnormal ground condition (Rule 25-1) or a wrong putting green (Rule 25-3).

It is the point on the course nearest to where the ball lies:

(i) that is not nearer the hole, and

(ii) where, if the ball were so positioned, no interference by the condition from which relief is sought would exist for the stroke the player would have made from the original position if the condition were not there.

Note: In order to determine the nearest point of relief accurately, the player should use the club with which he would have made his next stroke if the condition were not there to simulate the address position, direction of play and swing for such a stroke.

I think it's #1 unless the fencing is considered to be part of the cart path so that they're both the same condition. Am I looking at this wrong?

post #21 of 22

In general, you take relief for one rule at a time.  If taking relief from one condition puts you into a position where you are entitled to relief under another rule, you then follow the procedure for that rule.  See decision below.

 

In the case described one would:

 

A)  Find the nearest point of relief for the ball on the cart path and drop according the procedure.

 

B)  Determine if the fence interfered with the stance, swing or lie from the new ball position.  If yes, find the nearest point of relief from the fence and drop according to the procedure.  

 

Note that B assumes the fence is not a boundary fence and has not been designated as an integral part of the course (unlikely with a fence, but can happen with things like stone walls).

 

 

 

1-4/8

Nearest Point of Relief from Cart Path Is in Casual Water; Nearest Point of Relief from Casual Water Is Back on Cart Path

Q.A player's ball lies on a paved cart path from which he wishes to take relief under Rule 24-2b(i). It appears that the nearest point of relief will be in a large area of casual water which adjoins the cart path and the nearest point of relief from the casual water under Rule 25-1b(i) would be back on the cart path. What are the player's options?

A.The player may proceed in accordance with Rule 24-2 and then, if applicable, Rule 25-1. He is not entitled to take relief from both the immovable obstruction and the casual water in a single procedure, unless after proceeding under these Rules, the player is essentially back where he started and it is evident that such a procedure is necessary to obtain relief from both conditions.

Therefore, the player should proceed as follows:

1. He may lift and drop the ball in accordance with Rule 24-2b(i) in the casual water.

2. He may play the ball as it lies or take relief from the casual water, in which case he would lift and drop the ball in accordance with Rule 25-1b(i).

3. If the ball when dropped comes to rest in such a position that there is interference by the cart path, he may play the ball as it lies or proceed in accordance with Rule 24-2b(i). If the nearest point of relief is in the casual water, as an additional option, the player may, in equity (Rule 1-4) obtain relief without penalty as follows: Using the new position of the ball on the cart path, the nearest point of relief from both the cart path and the casual water shall be determined which is not in a hazard or on a putting green. The player shall lift the ball and drop it within one club-length of and not nearer the hole than the nearest point of relief, on a part of the course which avoids interference by the cart path and the casual water and is not in a hazard or on a putting green.

If the dropped ball rolls into a position where there is interference by either the cart path or the casual water, Rule 20-2c applies.

The same principle would apply if there was interference from any two conditions, i.e., casual water, a hole made by a burrowing animal, an immovable obstruction, from which relief without penalty was available and in taking relief from one condition it resulted in interference from the second condition.

post #22 of 22

If the stakes and ropes are meant to be immovable obstructions and are that close to the cart path, it's common to notify the competitors that they are to be considered as a single immovable obstruction.  It's done that way to make it easy for the players to play within the Rules - not requiring two separate relief situations.  Players would tend to take relief from both in one step, and without such a declaration in the notice, they could well end up in a wrong place (and penalty) situation.

These are things that must be considered by the referees who are marking the course.

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