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When ball on path, can i choose 'nearest point of relief'? - Page 2

post #19 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkolo View Post
 

OK, that makes sense. You don't go through the relief process twice, you just treat it as one big obstruction is my understanding then. 

 

Thank you!

 

Hmmm.  Thinking this back over, I'm not 100% sure I'm right.  If the fence is one you don't get free relief from, does it still count as part of what can obstruct your stance/swing while taking relief from a different obstruction from which you do get free relief?  In practice I know the kind of wood stake + string knee high fence you're talking about and it's pretty much always removable.  But I'm not 100% sure in the other case anymore.  Any more rules-knowledgable guys wanna chime in?

post #20 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdl View Post
 

 

Hmmm.  Thinking this back over, I'm not 100% sure I'm right.  If the fence is one you don't get free relief from, does it still count as part of what can obstruct your stance/swing while taking relief from a different obstruction from which you do get free relief?  In practice I know the kind of wood stake + string knee high fence you're talking about and it's pretty much always removable.  But I'm not 100% sure in the other case anymore.  Any more rules-knowledgable guys wanna chime in?

 

 

Yeah, I think my question basically boils down to order of operations because this seems like a stacking rules issue. I think the fence is an immovable obstruction in its own right, as is the cart path. Basically, I think there's three possibilities that I can see:

 

1) Find the closest point that has you clear of the cart path, as if the fence didn't exist, even though in reality your legs might be pushing up against those posts / rope or be blocked entirely, and then go one club length from there

2) Find the closest point that has you clear of both the cart path and the fence / rope, then go one club length from there

3) Find the closest point that has you clear of the cart path, then find the nearest point that gives you relief from the fence as well, then take your one club length.

 

I'm trying to picture whether 2 and 3 could put you in a slightly different spot, and I think they might, which is why I list them separately. In any event, I think they're analytically different. 

 

My intuition is that it's choice 1 because the NPR from the cart path is only a place you'd theoretically be able to hit from free of the cart path, and you only care about the fence if it affects you once you've taken your stance after completing the relief procedures (drop one club length, etc). 

 

Quote:
 Nearest Point Of Relief

The “nearest point of relief” is the reference point for taking relief without penalty from interference by an immovable obstruction(Rule 24-2), an abnormal ground condition (Rule 25-1) or a wrong putting green (Rule 25-3).

It is the point on the course nearest to where the ball lies:

(i) that is not nearer the hole, and

(ii) where, if the ball were so positioned, no interference by the condition from which relief is sought would exist for the stroke the player would have made from the original position if the condition were not there.

Note: In order to determine the nearest point of relief accurately, the player should use the club with which he would have made his next stroke if the condition were not there to simulate the address position, direction of play and swing for such a stroke.

I think it's #1 unless the fencing is considered to be part of the cart path so that they're both the same condition. Am I looking at this wrong?

post #21 of 34

In general, you take relief for one rule at a time.  If taking relief from one condition puts you into a position where you are entitled to relief under another rule, you then follow the procedure for that rule.  See decision below.

 

In the case described one would:

 

A)  Find the nearest point of relief for the ball on the cart path and drop according the procedure.

 

B)  Determine if the fence interfered with the stance, swing or lie from the new ball position.  If yes, find the nearest point of relief from the fence and drop according to the procedure.  

 

Note that B assumes the fence is not a boundary fence and has not been designated as an integral part of the course (unlikely with a fence, but can happen with things like stone walls).

 

 

 

1-4/8

Nearest Point of Relief from Cart Path Is in Casual Water; Nearest Point of Relief from Casual Water Is Back on Cart Path

Q.A player's ball lies on a paved cart path from which he wishes to take relief under Rule 24-2b(i). It appears that the nearest point of relief will be in a large area of casual water which adjoins the cart path and the nearest point of relief from the casual water under Rule 25-1b(i) would be back on the cart path. What are the player's options?

A.The player may proceed in accordance with Rule 24-2 and then, if applicable, Rule 25-1. He is not entitled to take relief from both the immovable obstruction and the casual water in a single procedure, unless after proceeding under these Rules, the player is essentially back where he started and it is evident that such a procedure is necessary to obtain relief from both conditions.

Therefore, the player should proceed as follows:

1. He may lift and drop the ball in accordance with Rule 24-2b(i) in the casual water.

2. He may play the ball as it lies or take relief from the casual water, in which case he would lift and drop the ball in accordance with Rule 25-1b(i).

3. If the ball when dropped comes to rest in such a position that there is interference by the cart path, he may play the ball as it lies or proceed in accordance with Rule 24-2b(i). If the nearest point of relief is in the casual water, as an additional option, the player may, in equity (Rule 1-4) obtain relief without penalty as follows: Using the new position of the ball on the cart path, the nearest point of relief from both the cart path and the casual water shall be determined which is not in a hazard or on a putting green. The player shall lift the ball and drop it within one club-length of and not nearer the hole than the nearest point of relief, on a part of the course which avoids interference by the cart path and the casual water and is not in a hazard or on a putting green.

If the dropped ball rolls into a position where there is interference by either the cart path or the casual water, Rule 20-2c applies.

The same principle would apply if there was interference from any two conditions, i.e., casual water, a hole made by a burrowing animal, an immovable obstruction, from which relief without penalty was available and in taking relief from one condition it resulted in interference from the second condition.

post #22 of 34

If the stakes and ropes are meant to be immovable obstructions and are that close to the cart path, it's common to notify the competitors that they are to be considered as a single immovable obstruction.  It's done that way to make it easy for the players to play within the Rules - not requiring two separate relief situations.  Players would tend to take relief from both in one step, and without such a declaration in the notice, they could well end up in a wrong place (and penalty) situation.

These are things that must be considered by the referees who are marking the course.

post #23 of 34
I shoot right handed and had a situation where my ball landed on the right side of the cart path inches from the path. To the right of the ball was a extremely steep slop such that when I found the 1 club length Point of Relief and dropped the ball it rolled back down over the cart path onto the left side grass no closer to the hole. Can I play it from there?
post #24 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Dobek View Post

I shoot right handed and had a situation where my ball landed on the right side of the cart path inches from the path. To the right of the ball was a extremely steep slop such that when I found the 1 club length Point of Relief and dropped the ball it rolled back down over the cart path onto the left side grass no closer to the hole. Can I play it from there?

No.  If it rolls more than 2 clublengths from where it hits you have to attempt to it again, and then if it happens again, you have to place it on the spot where it first hits.

 

From the sound of it, you may have just been better off playing it from the original spot while standing on the path.

post #25 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

No.  If it rolls more than 2 clublengths from where it hits you have to attempt to it again, and then if it happens again, you have to place it on the spot where it first hits.

 

From the sound of it, you may have just been better off playing it from the original spot while standing on the path.

 

You can't do that once you've lifted for a drop, can you?

post #26 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by natureboy View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

No.  If it rolls more than 2 clublengths from where it hits you have to attempt to it again, and then if it happens again, you have to place it on the spot where it first hits.

 

From the sound of it, you may have just been better off playing it from the original spot while standing on the path.

 

You can't do that once you've lifted for a drop, can you?

 

Yes you can, but it will cost a stroke for lifting the ball.  If you have already made one drop, then I don't think you are allowed to replace it on the original spot.  I think you are then required to complete the dropping process.  I never lift the ball until I've examined my chances for a playable drop.

post #27 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

Yes you can, but it will cost a stroke for lifting the ball.  If you have already made one drop, then I don't think you are allowed to replace it on the original spot.  I think you are then required to complete the dropping process.  I never lift the ball until I've examined my chances for a playable drop.

At any time, a player may, under penalty of one stroke, play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played.

post #28 of 34

20-6/5

Player Drops Ball Under Rules and Then Wishes to Replace Ball in Original Position

 

Q  .A player's ball lies under a tree. The player deems the ball unplayable and drops a ball three club-lengths from where the ball originally lay. Before playing, he is informed that he dropped the ball in a wrong place. The player lifts the dropped ball under Rule 20-6 and realizes that, if he drops the ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball originally lay, it is likely to be unplayable. May the player replace the ball in its original position, incurring a penalty stroke under Rule 18-2a?

 

 

A. No. Once the player has put a ball into play under an applicable Rule, he must continue to proceed under that Rule until he has correctly put a ball into play. In this case, the player may change options under Rule 28 when correcting the error of dropping a ball in a wrong place (see Decision 20-6/2), but he may not proceed under another Rule or replace the ball in its original position.

After lifting a ball, a player is entitled to replace it in its original position only if he has not yet put it back into play under an applicable Rule. However, in that case, the player may incur a penalty of one stroke under Rule 18-2a for having lifted his ball without authority (see Decision 18-2a/12).

post #29 of 34
Good interesting discussion. Played one in league from center bridge crossing pond to hole. Relief back in sloped hazard. Thanks for thread and diagram.

post #30 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rulesman View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

Yes you can, but it will cost a stroke for lifting the ball.  If you have already made one drop, then I don't think you are allowed to replace it on the original spot.  I think you are then required to complete the dropping process.  I never lift the ball until I've examined my chances for a playable drop.

At any time, a player may, under penalty of one stroke, play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played.

 

This doesn't really apply, does it?  When dropping the player is not "playing the ball", in other words he is not playing a stroke, so that wouldn't apply, would it?  He must finish the procedure of taking relief, then he can drop (not place - see Rule 28) the ball back in the original spot on the obstruction, as long as that spot is not closer to the hole than where the ball now lies after taking relief, under penalty of one stroke.  

 

By your statement that would mean he could only return to the spot from which the last stroke was made, that being the stroke which initially put the ball in it's position on the obstruction.  He could not replace the ball in its spot on the obstruction and play from there, because rule 28 doesn't allow placing in this situation unless the first two drops don't leave the ball in a position allowed under Rule 20-2c.

 

I think that this discussion really points out the error of lifting one's ball under a rule before making certain that the drop is really what you want to do.  A player can really create all sorts of complications by not clearly thinking through the process before touching his ball.

post #31 of 34

natureboy asked about a lifted ball but did not ask about a dropped ball. The ball was not in play. See the difference between 24-2b/5 and 25-1b/9. 

 

As 20-6/5 says:-

After lifting a ball, a player is entitled to replace it in its original position only if he has not yet put it back into play under an applicable Rule. However, in that case, the player may incur a penalty of one stroke under Rule 18-2a for having lifted his ball without authority (see Decision 18-2a/12).

post #32 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rulesman View Post
 

natureboy asked about a lifted ball but did not ask about a dropped ball. The ball was not in play. See the difference between 24-2b/5 and 25-1b/9. 

 

As 20-6/5 says:-

After lifting a ball, a player is entitled to replace it in its original position only if he has not yet put it back into play under an applicable Rule. However, in that case, the player may incur a penalty of one stroke under Rule 18-2a for having lifted his ball without authority (see Decision 18-2a/12).

 

But he did.  He said after the first drop that the ball rolled down the incline and across the cart path.  He asked if he could play it from there, was told no...  

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Dobek View Post

I shoot right handed and had a situation where my ball landed on the right side of the cart path inches from the path. To the right of the ball was a extremely steep slop such that when I found the 1 club length Point of Relief and dropped the ball it rolled back down over the cart path onto the left side grass no closer to the hole. Can I play it from there?
 

...then the subject of changing the rule in midstream came up...

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by natureboy View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

No.  If it rolls more than 2 clublengths from where it hits you have to attempt to it again, and then if it happens again, you have to place it on the spot where it first hits.

 

From the sound of it, you may have just been better off playing it from the original spot while standing on the path.

 

You can't do that once you've lifted for a drop, can you?

 

 

...so here we are.  Some of these rules threads tend to expand a bit from the original question as the discussion progresses.  It is hard sometimes to tell just where a given post is derived from.

post #33 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

But he did.  He said after the first drop that the ball rolled down the incline and across the cart path.  

 

 

...so here we are.  Some of these rules threads tend to expand a bit from the original question as the discussion progresses.  It is hard sometimes to tell just where a given post is derived from.

The only words he has posted are:- "You can't do that once you've lifted for a drop, can you?"

 

However, I agree with your last point.

post #34 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

But he did.  He said after the first drop that the ball rolled down the incline and across the cart path.  He asked if he could play it from there, was told no...  

 

...then the subject of changing the rule in midstream came up...

 

 

 

...so here we are.  Some of these rules threads tend to expand a bit from the original question as the discussion progresses.  It is hard sometimes to tell just where a given post is derived from.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rulesman View Post
 

The only words he has posted are:- "You can't do that once you've lifted for a drop, can you?"

 

However, I agree with your last point.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rulesman View Post
 

natureboy asked about a lifted ball but did not ask about a dropped ball. The ball was not in play. See the difference between 24-2b/5 and 25-1b/9. 

 

As 20-6/5 says:-

After lifting a ball, a player is entitled to replace it in its original position only if he has not yet put it back into play under an applicable Rule. However, in that case, the player may incur a penalty of one stroke under Rule 18-2a for having lifted his ball without authority (see Decision 18-2a/12).

 

I should have made a clearer query whether you can still get a 'free' place once the ball is lifted (other than putting green).

 

Helpful clarification discussion by all & caution re. lifting ball before fully assessing likely drop outcome. Thanks.

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