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Chella Choi Cheating. What is the LPGA doing about it? - Page 12

post #199 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

Accidentally??  Also, I find it peculiar that you think blatantly cheating out in the open where everybody can see is worse than trying to do it when you think nobody is looking.  I would argue that you have that backwards.

 

Look, lets say I walk up to you and just, for no reason, kick you in the nuts.  Or, lets say I walk up to @14ledo81 and, unprovoked, punch him in the face.  Now, do you really have to be able to read my mind to know that I did those things intentionally???

 

Certainly, you would have no idea as to WHY I did it, but you know I did it, you saw (and felt) me do it, and there is no excuse for me.  There is certainly an explanation warranted, but nothing is going to take away from the obvious fact that what I did was intentional.

 

Just hope I don't have anything heavy and metallic in my hands when you do it. :-D

 

BTW, I just edited my post, and now that I look at it again analyzing the slow motion clip, I can see clearly why so many people think she had time to decide what she would do. I had been looking at the real time portion of the video, and it was like she placed the ball and lazily put it back in what appears to be a more difficult putt because of a tiny brown patch in her new putting line.

post #200 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

Accidentally??  Also, I find it peculiar that you think blatantly cheating out in the open where everybody can see is worse than trying to do it when you think nobody is looking.  I would argue that you have that backwards.

 

 

No, you aren't understanding. Accidentally misplacing the ball = to mistake on taxes, intentionally misplacing ball = intentional tax fraud not murder. Really though, I don't really care to have this discussion any longer. I just didn't think the original analogy was fitting to what happened because it wasn't two instances of the same action one intentional and one accidental, also because the intentional action was so much more severe that it really didn't belong.

 

All of this is still off topic because the thread was supposed to be about what the LPGA would do about it and people are still discussion other things, and I'm no better because I keep doing it too!! Best practice is for me to just bow out of the thread all together. 

post #201 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremie Boop View Post
 

No, you aren't understanding. Accidentally misplacing the ball = to mistake on taxes, intentionally misplacing ball = intentional tax fraud not murder. Really though, I don't really care to have this discussion any longer. I just didn't think the original analogy was fitting to what happened because it wasn't two instances of the same action one intentional and one accidental, also because the intentional action was so much more severe that it really didn't belong.

 

All of this is still off topic because the thread was supposed to be about what the LPGA would do about it and people are still discussion other things, and I'm no better because I keep doing it too!! Best practice is for me to just bow out of the thread all together.

OK, but you're still arguing a point that is pointless.  The point of the whole analogy is to show the difference between the mistake and the intentional act.  The difference in severity between intentional tax fraud and murder and how it compares to golf is ... well, who gives a shit??  It has nothing to do with anything.  All I am saying is that she deserves no leeway or benefit or sympathy of the rule prohibiting call-ins when she freaking cheated.  Just like a tax evader (or a murderer) doesn't deserve any sympathy or leeway either.  That's all.

 

(And you can't really go off topic when the answer to the topic has already been given by the LPGA ... nothing) :)

post #202 of 305
I'll give every golfer the benefit of doubt on their initial action. I start with the assumption they're honest. Where I don't is when they are taken aside and shown a video of their foul. What possible argument could Choi present for defense? Not signing your scorecard after a completed round is a DQ. That should be her official status for last weeks tournament - not a WD.
post #203 of 305
OK, went back & watched the video repeatedly, agree the cheating allegation is pretty obvious. You gotta admit it was pretty slick move though. Improperly marking the ball and then improperly placing he ball ... gained her about an inch to better her line & she went about it without hesitation - she had the whole exercise down pat ... doubt its the first time she's done it being that she did it so well. She just got busted. I still think she was either really pissed about the call in thing (like I'd be), or knew well what she did & didn't want to deal with the aftermath, and simply dodged the whole issue by WD-ing. I think the very lack of discussion on her part is 100% incriminating in this case ...

It just seems so unnecessary in the context of that particular shot ... I'd put $20 on it that I'm the worst putter for a 12 hcp any of you have ever seen, and even I could have rammed that short putt in over a f'n unrepaired ballmark from that distance. She'll never admit it, but would love to know why a person would take such a chance for such an easy putt.... so much on the line for a professional these days - she could have lost her Volvik sponsorship, damaged reputation, even temporarily lost her playing credentials - I know every time I see her name for the rest of her career, I'll remember this incident ...
post #204 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by inthehole View Post

OK, went back & watched the video repeatedly, agree the cheating allegation is pretty obvious. You gotta admit it was pretty slick move though. Improperly marking the ball and then improperly placing he ball ... gained her about an inch to better her line & she went about it without hesitation - she had the whole exercise down pat ... doubt its the first time she's done it being that she did it so well. She just got busted. I still think she was either really pissed about the call in thing (like I'd be), or knew well what she did & didn't want to deal with the aftermath, and simply dodged the whole issue by WD-ing. I think the very lack of discussion on her part is 100% incriminating in this case ...

It just seems so unnecessary in the context of that particular shot ... I'd put $20 on it that I'm the worst putter for a 12 hcp any of you have ever seen, and even I could have rammed that short putt in over a f'n unrepaired ballmark from that distance. She'll never admit it, but would love to know why a person would take such a chance for such an easy putt.... so much on the line for a professional these days - I know every time I see her name for the rest of her career, I'll remember this incident ...

Hmmm. I don't think she improperly marked the ball. Just improperly replaced it.

post #205 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by inthehole View Post

OK, went back & watched the video repeatedly, agree the cheating allegation is pretty obvious. You gotta admit it was pretty slick move though. Improperly marking the ball and then improperly placing he ball ... gained her about an inch to better her line & she went about it without hesitation - she had the whole exercise down pat ... doubt its the first time she's done it being that she did it so well. She just got busted. I still think she was either really pissed about the call in thing (like I'd be), or knew well what she did & didn't want to deal with the aftermath, and simply dodged the whole issue by WD-ing. I think the very lack of discussion on her part is 100% incriminating in this case ...

It just seems so unnecessary in the context of that particular shot ... I'd put $20 on it that I'm the worst putter for a 12 hcp any of you have ever seen, and even I could have rammed that short putt in over a f'n unrepaired ballmark from that distance. She'll never admit it, but would love to know why a person would take such a chance for such an easy putt.... so much on the line for a professional these days - she could have lost her Volvik sponsorship, damaged reputation, even temporarily lost her playing credentials - I know every time I see her name for the rest of her career, I'll remember this incident ...

Yeah, it's unfortunate for her that she didn't appreciate the stigma that will be associated to her for how she handled the situation.  If she took the penalty and played on it would have seem less incriminating.  I have to think everyone is going to watch how she marks and replaces the balls for quite some time.  

post #206 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by MS256 View Post

Quote:

Originally Posted by inthehole View Post



OK, went back & watched the video repeatedly, agree the cheating allegation is pretty obvious. You gotta admit it was pretty slick move though. Improperly marking the ball and then improperly placing he ball ... gained her about an inch to better her line & she went about it without hesitation - she had the whole exercise down pat ... doubt its the first time she's done it being that she did it so well. She just got busted. I still think she was either really pissed about the call in thing (like I'd be), or knew well what she did & didn't want to deal with the aftermath, and simply dodged the whole issue by WD-ing. I think the very lack of discussion on her part is 100% incriminating in this case ...



It just seems so unnecessary in the context of that particular shot ... I'd put $20 on it that I'm the worst putter for a 12 hcp any of you have ever seen, and even I could have rammed that short putt in over a f'n unrepaired ballmark from that distance. She'll never admit it, but would love to know why a person would take such a chance for such an easy putt.... so much on the line for a professional these days - I know every time I see her name for the rest of her career, I'll remember this incident ...



Hmmm. I don't think she improperly marked the ball. Just improperly replaced it.


 



That's the whole thing - from what I saw, she put the mark about a half inch left of the ball, and then placed the ball a half inch left of the mark. In actuality, she cheated twice !
post #207 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrDC View Post
 

I notice this was another case of a viewer calling in and letting them know about the infraction.

Not a fan of this practice at all, if the officials don't call it, then the player should not be penalized, no way should a caller be able to point out a penalty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by inthehole View Post
 

This falls into my theory.    Like me, maybe she has a BIG problem with viewers calling in rules infractions.     If it were me, as soon as the rules official started his sentence "John, we just got a call from a viewer that you may have broken the rules, and after subsequent review, we are going to instate a penalty" ... as soon as I heard "we just got a call from a viewer" ... I would have seen red and it would have been off to the races in my head - no telling what I would have done - probably pissed off as hell and reacted just as she did ... BECAUSE of the televised call in bullshit

 

If a Rule is broken, why do we care who saw it? The integrity of the competition should come first, not because "a spectator" saw it, or someone who isn't a player, caddie, or rules official saw it, etc.

 

If a Rule of Golf is broken, again, who cares who sees it? The truth is that the Rule was broken, so it should be enforced.

 

It'd be like committing a crime and the defense being simply "the police didn't see my client do it, only these other people, so set him free." That's not how the truth works.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by inthehole View Post

That's the whole thing - from what I saw, she put the mark about a half inch left of the ball, and then placed the ball a half inch left of the mark. In actuality, she cheated twice !

 

That's perfectly legal. The Rules suggest you mark behind your ball but don't require it.

post #208 of 305

The rules does not specify how you must mark the ball. It strongly recommends using a ball marker behind the ball, but doesn't forbid you using anything else, or marking it in another fashion. I sometimes mark it with my foot (casual rounds) just to bend over and see if it's got sand grains on it. The imporant part is that the ball is replaced at the same point where you picked it up.

 

Quote:
 The position of the ball must be marked before it is lifted under a Rule that requires it to be replaced. If it is not marked, the player incurs a penalty of one stroke and the ball must be replaced. If it is not replaced, the player incurs the general penalty for breach of this Rule but there is no additional penalty under Rule 20-1.

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-20/#20-1

 

Quote:
 

20-1/16

Method Used to Mark Position of Ball

Q.The Note to Rule 20-1 provides that "the position of a ball to be lifted should be marked by placing a ball-marker, a small coin or other similar object immediately behind the ball." Is a player penalized if he uses an object that is not similar to a ball-marker or small coin to mark the position of his ball?

A.No. The provision in the Note to Rule 20-1 is a recommendation of best practice, but there is no penalty for failing to act in accordance with the Note.

 

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-20/#d20-1-16

post #209 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernest Jones View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post

Perhaps it could have been a "refused to accept" in the same way somebody reacts when given a gift that is too valuable.  Not defiance, but more like a guilty refusal?
Interesting take. You mean like, "I can't accept the 2 strokes because what I did was really shitty and I deserve to be DQ'd for being a cheater, cheater, pumpkin eater so I will WD in utter shame."

IF that was the case, the reporting was crap and her PR team dropped the ball, although maybe they just hoped no one would notice and make a big deal out of it, which seems to be the case as far as the LPGA is concerned.

I'm not buying it simply because if that was the case the media would jump all over it because it would make an even better story.

Ya know pumpkin doesn't deserve the bad wrap you are giving it!  Pumpkin never cheated and you are dragging it down into the ditch with all the other gutter snipes.  I think you owe pumpkin an apology.

post #210 of 305
That's too bad. She was a member at Deercreek country club in Jacksonville, fl. Her dad is her caddy/coach and they don't work. She supports the family. Cheating is cheating.
post #211 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by inthehole View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MS256 View Post
 
Quote:
 
Originally Posted by inthehole View Post



OK, went back & watched the video repeatedly, agree the cheating allegation is pretty obvious. You gotta admit it was pretty slick move though. Improperly marking the ball and then improperly placing he ball ... gained her about an inch to better her line & she went about it without hesitation - she had the whole exercise down pat ... doubt its the first time she's done it being that she did it so well. She just got busted. I still think she was either really pissed about the call in thing (like I'd be), or knew well what she did & didn't want to deal with the aftermath, and simply dodged the whole issue by WD-ing. I think the very lack of discussion on her part is 100% incriminating in this case ...



It just seems so unnecessary in the context of that particular shot ... I'd put $20 on it that I'm the worst putter for a 12 hcp any of you have ever seen, and even I could have rammed that short putt in over a f'n unrepaired ballmark from that distance. She'll never admit it, but would love to know why a person would take such a chance for such an easy putt.... so much on the line for a professional these days - I know every time I see her name for the rest of her career, I'll remember this incident ...
 

Hmmm. I don't think she improperly marked the ball. Just improperly replaced it.

 



That's the whole thing - from what I saw, she put the mark about a half inch left of the ball, and then placed the ball a half inch left of the mark. In actuality, she cheated twice !


More like 1.5" not 0.5".

 

I think she was a little off balance when picking up and put it down where she could reach without having to stand up and step over then replace**. It was stupid, and cost her 2 strokes. She should have just accepted it. Simple.

 

**She should also switch to a much smaller ball marker.

post #212 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihu View Post
 

I think she was a little off balance when picking up and put it down where she could reach without having to stand up and step over then replace. It was stupid, and cost her 2 strokes. She should have just accepted it. Simple.

 

She was off balance?

 

Huh?

post #213 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

She was off balance?

 

Huh?


I tried to reproduce the incident, and reached over just a little beyond my comfortable reach. When I wanted to put the ball back it was harder to do than simply place it closer to my lead foot. I would have been off balance putting it back to the original position.

 

BTW, I am not excusing her behavior, I just think there was no ill intent in her action. Either way 2 strokes. So, intent is really irrelevant.

post #214 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihu View Post
 


More like 1.5" not 0.5".

 

I think she was a little off balance when picking up and put it down where she could reach without having to stand up and step over then replace**. It was stupid, and cost her 2 strokes. She should have just accepted it. Simple.

 

**She should also switch to a much smaller ball marker.

YAY!  Now I can happily, and officially, pass the "Biggest Benefit of the Doubt Giver on TST" to you @Lihu . :beer:

 

I didn't really need it anyway, since Erik hadn't created a badge for it yet! :dance:

post #215 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihu View Post
 

I tried to reproduce the incident, and reached over just a little beyond my comfortable reach. When I wanted to put the ball back it was harder to do than simply place it closer to my lead foot. I would have been off balance putting it back to the original position.

 

No, sorry, the excuses you want to keep offering don't cut it.

 

You can ground your club in a hazard when losing your balance. That's allowed, because the Rules of Golf don't want to punish someone for preventing themselves from falling over, and something they do naturally to protect themselves, which really probably doesn't do anything to make the shot easier.

 

But losing your balance while re-placing a ball on the putting green? Please, @Lihu, consider the Rules of Golf: you can re-position the ball because the mark is still there. Even if she WAS losing her balance, she didn't have to accept that "oops, I put the ball down in the wrong spot. Oh well, what's done is done. I'll putt out."

 

Plus, I disagree that it looks at all like she's losing her balance. Her hand is on the green, both feet are on the ground, and she doesn't look at all like she's "losing her balance."

post #216 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post

YAY!  Now I can happily, and officially, pass the "Biggest Benefit of the Doubt Giver on TST" to you @Lihu
 . c2_beer.gif

I didn't really need it anyway, since Erik hadn't created a badge for it yet! c3_clap.gif

What's ironic is that people at work think I'm quite the opposite. I'm more of a show me by experiment type. a3_biggrin.gif
But I'll take the award. c2_beer.gif

In any case, it is clear that the rules of golf have both scenarios covered, so this definitely proves to me the rules work.

Btw, you can always argue that my experiment is not valid because, Chella does not look like a 5'10.5 208 pound male golfer. Thanks goodness.b2_tongue.gif
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