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Rules Question about Putting from Fringe


joekelly
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Was watching European Ladies on TV recently. One lady had a long putt, downhill and she overshot with ball coming to rest on 'collar' or 'apron' of green.  Now about 8 feet from cup, but certainly off green. She again took the putter but bent over in front of ball and, as it appeared to me, brush something ?? off the collar, and along the line of the putt.  Maybe only shooing an insect. But also maybe brushing off a leaf or bits of sand, etc.

My understanding is that if ball NOT on green, then not permitted to mess around (improve, correct, clean) with the lie, or the line of putt. Am i correct?  If golfer does brush away a dry leaf is that a violation?  What if she blew away the dry leaf, not touching the surface but still removing the leaf?  What if not a leaf, but a large dead beetle which might truly interfere with track of putt?  And would she be permitted to touch the surface of the collar along the line for any reason?  Could she repair a pitch mark along her line but on the collar?

What if dry leaf was behind her ball, not in front, could she remove it?  Here i believe she could remove loose impediment, if ball not moved.

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Loose Impediments

Loose impediments ’’ are natural objects, including:

  • stones, leaves, twigs, branches and the like,
  • dung, and
  • worms, insects and the like, and the casts and heaps made by them,

provided they are not:

  • fixed or growing,
  • solidly embedded, or
  • adhering to the ball.

Sand and loose soil are loose impediments on the putting green , but not elsewhere.

Snow and natural ice, other than frost, are either casual water or loose impediments , at the option of the player.

Dew and frost are not loose impediments .


23-1 . Relief

Except when both the loose impediment and the ball lie in or touch the same hazard , any loose impediment may be removed without penalty.

If the ball lies anywhere other than on the putting green and the removal of a loose impediment by the player causes the ball to move , Rule 18-2a applies.

On the putting green , if the ball or ball-marker is accidentally moved in the process of the player removing a loose impediment , the ball or ball-marker must be replaced. There is no penalty, provided the movement of the ball or ball-marker is directly attributable to the removal of the loose impediment . Otherwise, if the player causes the ball to move , he incurs a penalty of one stroke under Rule 18-2a .

When a ball is in motion, a loose impediment that might influence the movement of the ball must not be removed.

Note: If the ball lies in a hazard , the player must not touch or move any loose impediment lying in or touching the same hazard – see Rule 13-4c .

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Joe,

What the Definition and Rule that @iacas quotes tell you is that if a natural thing meets the definition of a loose impediment, it can be removed anywhere on the course except  if your ball and the loose impediment are in the same hazard.  The lady you observed was ok to remove a leaf or something whether on or off the green and even if it was on her line of play or line of putt.  And it's ok to touch your line of putt when removing a loose impediment.

You might watch out for the awkward one of sand or loose soil which are not loose impediments anywhere else on the course but are loose impediments on the putting green.

You are not allowed to repair a pitch mark off the green if it could improve your lie,  area of swing or line of play.  You can repair them  on the green any time.

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Rory McIlroy broke the rule during a tournament when he brushed sand off the fringe to clear the line of his putt. I think his playing competitor said he couldn't do that, and Rory gave himself the penalty.

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Joe,

What the Definition and Rule that @iacas quotes tell you is that if a natural thing meets the definition of a loose impediment, it can be removed anywhere on the course except  if your ball and the loose impediment are in the same hazard.  The lady you observed was ok to remove a leaf or something whether on or off the green and even if it was on her line of play or line of putt.  And it's ok to touch your line of putt when removing a loose impediment.

You might watch out for the awkward one of sand or loose soil which are not loose impediments anywhere else on the course but are loose impediments on the putting green.

You are not allowed to repair a pitch mark off the green if it could improve your lie,  area of swing or line of play.  You can repair them  on the green any time.


I thought you could only repair a pitch mark in your putt line if it's your own?  Whether putting from the green or fringe?

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I thought you could only repair a pitch mark in your putt line if it's your own?  Whether putting from the green or fringe?

i'm pretty sure you can fix any pitch mark on the green, regardless if its yours.  cant fix spike marks.  besides, how would you be 100% certain that a pitch mark is definitely yours if your approach was from 200 out?  it could have been some jackwagon who didnt repair their mark.

Colin P.

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I thought you could only repair a pitch mark in your putt line if it's your own?  Whether putting from the green or fringe?

No you can fix any ball mark.  Doesn't have to be yours and it doesn't matter where your ball is .  Here is an exception, however it's pretty rare.

16-1c/2

Ball Mark in Position to Assist Opponent

Q.A and B are playing a match. At a par-3 hole, both are on the green with their tee shots. A's ball comes to rest four feet from the hole. B's ball is fifteen feet from the hole. Upon reaching the green, A prepares to repair his ball mark. B tells A not to do so until he (B) has putted because A's ball mark is so situated that B's ball might be deflected into the hole by it. A objects, stating that he wishes to repair his ball mark immediately. May A do so?

A.No, if A repairs the ball mark, he loses the hole (see Decision 2/3 ) for intentionally denying B's right to have the ball mark left in position. Although A is permitted to repair the ball mark under Rule 16-1c , and accordingly would not be in breach of Rule 1-2 for doing so (see Exception 1 to Rule 1-2 ), he must comply with B's request not to repair the ball mark. (Revised)

Along these lines, an opponent or fellow competitor may not want a ball mark repaired that is on his line of putt.  If he wants it left there, you need to honor this.  If it's on your line of putt as well, and it's your turn to play, you can repair it.

Regards,

John

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No you can fix any ball mark.  Doesn't have to be yours and it doesn't matter where your ball is.

I need some clarification here.  I was under the impression that you could not repair pitch marks that aren't on the green when your ball is also not on the green?  This post makes it sound like I've been mistaken.

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I need some clarification here.  I was under the impression that you could not repair pitch marks that aren't on the green when your ball is also not on the green?  This post makes it sound like I've been mistaken.

i think you can fix them if theyre not on your line of play or improving your lie.

Colin P.

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If the marks r on the green you may repair them. Doesn't matter where the ball is. If the mark is off the green and fixing it improves ur lie, stance, or line of play, leave it alone. There is an exception. ;-)

Regards,

John

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I need some clarification here.  I was under the impression that you could not repair pitch marks that aren't on the green when your ball is also not on the green?  This post makes it sound like I've been mistaken.

See Post #3

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And to be clear, there is no line of putt when your ball lies off green.

But it's still a line of play , which you are not allowed to improve.

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But it's still a line of play, which you are not allowed to improve.

Yes, it is a line of play.  However, the Rules permit repair of ball marks that are on the green at any time, and this includes those ball marks on the line of play or line of putt.  The permission to repair damage to the putting green is clearly stated in Rule 13-2, and 13-2 refers to Rule 16-1.

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But it's still a line of play, which you are not allowed to improve.

True, but you are allowed to touch line of play but not line of putt. So there is also some differences.

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As noted previously, Rule 16-1a gives many instances where you are permitted to touch the line of putt,

- in removing loose impediments

- addressing the ball in front of the ball

- measuring

- lifting or replacing a ball

- pressing down a ball marker

- in repairing old hole plugs and ball marks on the putting green

- removing movable obstructions

Rule 16-1c says that the player may repair ball marks on the putting green whether or not his ball lies on the putting green.  The Rule does not give any limitations to repairing ball marks on the putting green.

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As noted previously, Rule 16-1a gives many instances where you are permitted to touch the line of putt,

So are you saying that you can use line of putt and line of play interchangeably?

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Note: This thread is 3471 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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