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Rule 3-3 Question


Golfbum18
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Hello all,

A fellow competitor of mine recently had a rules issue and I wanted to clarify.

He dropped his putter on his ball during tournament play.  We didn't know whether or not he should replace the ball with penalty, or play from the new position (2 feet away from the original spot).  Here's how it went down.

He decided to play two balls and announced so.  However, he did not announce which ball he wanted to count.

He then proceeded to putt in the ball that was moved about 2 feet away from the original spot first.  Then went over to the original spot, replaced the ball, and made that putt too.  This was all done with the same golf ball.

Now, from my understanding of Rule 3-3, it WAS NOT invoked because he failed to announce which ball he wanted to count before proceeding.

Everything I've read is that the original ball will count as long as it was played in accordance with the rules.  In his case, the second putt he played was holed correctly by replacing to the original spot and taking a 1 shot penalty, resulting in a score of 4 for the hole.

I'm also fairly sure that him playing the ball that was moved 2 feet away does not count as a penalty because it was not played in accordance with the rules and the other putt was played in accordance.

Please verify that we got this right.

Thanks!

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You're on the right track.

There are essentially four "musts" for 3-3. The player must:

1) before playing, announce his intention to play a second ball, and

2) must announce which of the two balls he wishes to score with, and

3) should (read must) hole out with both balls, and

4) report same to the Committee.

I take it from your narrative that the player got 1, 2 & 4 correct. If I were on the Committee, I think that I would accept that enough of the elements of 3-3 were complied with and look to 3-3b for an answer as to how to determine the player's score.

If the Committee were to rule that the player did not behave in a manner acceptable to the playing of a second ball, they might have to consider that the "other putt' was a 7-2 "practice stroke' and award an additional 2 stroke penalty.

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There are essentially four "musts" for 3-3. The player must:

1) before playing, announce his intention to play a second ball, and

2) must announce which of the two balls he wishes to score with, and

3) should (read must) hole out with both balls, and

4) report same to the Committee.

The tournaments I play in, they are always very good to remind us of this rule on the first tee.  Every single time.

However, they always leave out #2.  I need to talk to them about that because it is crucial.

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In ur scenario If the player does no announce which ball counts the first ball would count if it had been played in accordance with the rules. Otherwise the second ball counts if it were played under the rules. Because the first ball was not played in accordance with the rules the second ball would count with a 1 stroke penalty. Edit. Read the question too fast.

Regards,

John

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In ur scenario If the player does no announce which ball counts the first ball would count if it had been played in accordance with the rules. Otherwise the second ball counts if it were played under the rules. Because the first ball was not played in accordance with the rules the second ball would count with a 1 stroke penalty.

Edit. Read the question too fast.

This is how I read it.  3-3b (ii) has the answer:

b. Determination of Score for Hole

(i) If the ball that the competitor selected in advance to count has been played in accordance with the Rules, the score with that ball is the competitor’s score for the hole. Otherwise, the score with the other ball counts if the Rules allow the procedure adopted for that ball.

(ii) If the competitor fails to announce in advance his decision to complete the hole with two balls, or which ball he wishes to count, the score with the original ball counts, provided it has been played in accordance with the Rules. If the original ball is not one of the balls being played, the first ball put into play counts, provided it has been played in accordance with the Rules. Otherwise, the score with the other ball counts if the Rules allow the procedure adopted for that ball.

Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

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The committee has lots of leeway to judge that a player has proceeded under 3-3 (if not, playing two balls is a penalty under either practice or delay).  It's clear enough that he intended to play under 3-3.

Having failed to declare which ball he wishes to count, the original ball counts IF(!!!) it is played according to the rules.  Since he played that ball from a wrong place, it was NOT played according to the rules.

Since the original ball is not played according to the rules, then the other ball counts if the rules allow the procedure adopted for that ball (they do).

4 is the correct score.

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The committee has lots of leeway to judge that a player has proceeded under 3-3 (if not, playing two balls is a penalty under either practice or delay).

Note: If the competitor takes further action before dealing with the doubtful situation, Rule 3-3 is not applicable. The score with the original ball counts or, if the original ball is not one of the balls being played, the score with the first ball put into play counts, even if the Rules do not allow the procedure adopted for that ball. However, the competitor incurs no penalty for having played a second ball, and any penalty strokes incurred solely by playing that ball do not count in his score.

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I'm going to take the opposite view.  Since the player did not announce which ball he wanted to score, the first ball played must count.  It was played according to the Rules, as it lies, and the player incurs a two stroke penalty for the general breach of Rule 18-2a.

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The original ball must be counted if played in accordance with the rules.  Not the FIRST ball.  Correct?  You are allowed to play in whatever order you'd like.  In this case, the second putt was with the original ball and played in accordance.  All other penalty shots that would have occurred with the first putt are not applicable.

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I'm curious, why is this different than if you accidentally hit your ball on a practice swing? In that case you simply play the ball where it ended up counting the movement as a stroke. Is it simply because it is on the green?

KICK THE FLIP!!

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I looked at my "R3-3 charts".

Reading the OP's question, I would agree with others that R3-3 applies.  Rule 3-3 does tell you which ball counts if the player doesn't specify this before he does anything further.  Not specifying which ball the player wishes to count does not, by itself, disqualify the application of R3-3.

The OB was the ball lying on the green after it was struck by his putter. "Playing in accordance with the rules" means he was required to replace the OB, which he did not do.  The second ball played was correctly played from the spot where the ball lay when it was moved.  This was in accordance with the rules.

The player was presented with two options.  Play the ball where it lie, or replace it.  One was correct under the rules, one was not.

My humble analysis.

Regards,

John

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Originally Posted by Golfbum18 View Post

The original ball must be counted if played in accordance with the rules.  Not the FIRST ball.  Correct?  You are allowed to play in whatever order you'd like.  In this case, the second putt was with the original ball and played in accordance.  All other penalty shots that would have occurred with the first putt are not applicable.

Correct, I said a bad thing earlier. :loco:

Regards,

John

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I'm curious, why is this different than if you accidentally hit your ball on a practice swing? In that case you simply play the ball where it ended up counting the movement as a stroke. Is it simply because it is on the green?

No,  you do not play the ball where it ended up .  You must replace the ball......put it back.   Practice swings are not strokes.

Regards,

John

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No,  you do not play the ball where it ended up .  You must replace the ball......put it back.   Practice swings are not strokes.

I see, been awhile since that's happened to me so I'm glad I haven't done it and used the score for handicap.

KICK THE FLIP!!

In the bag:
:srixon: Z355

:callaway: XR16 3 Wood
:tmade: Aeroburner 19* 3 hybrid
:ping: I e1 irons 4-PW
:vokey: SM5 50, 60
:wilsonstaff: Harmonized Sole Grind 56 and Windy City Putter

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I'm going to take the opposite view.  Since the player did not announce which ball he wanted to score, the first ball played must count.  It was played according to the Rules, as it lies, and the player incurs a two stroke penalty for the general breach of Rule 18-2a.

There is still some doubt in my mind because the wording is subject to misinterpretation.  The second clause in 3-3b does not say anything about the counting the second ball unless the original ball is not one of the two balls being played, so I'm not sure that that part of the first clause applies in this case.

Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

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No,  you do not play the ball where it ended up .  You must replace the ball......put it back.   Practice swings are not strokes.

...and failing to do so results in an additional 2-stroke penalty, on top of the 1-stroke earned by moving the ball in the first place. :-O

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Irons: Titleist 695cb 5-Pw

Wedges: Scratch 51-11 TNC grind, Vokey SM-5's;  56-14 F grind and 60-11 K grind
Putter: Scotty Cameron Kombi S
Ball: ProV1

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There is still some doubt in my mind because the wording is subject to misinterpretation.  The second clause in 3-3b does not say anything about the counting the second ball unless the original ball is not one of the two balls being played, so I'm not sure that that part of the first clause applies in this case.

It does if one of the balls was played NOT in accordance with the rules.  You basically take the one that was played in accordance.

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