Current vs previous eras - pro course lengths

I read recently that St. Andrews plays over 7200 yards from the pro tee's.     Just wondering if say in Palmer or Hogan's era with the old "real" woods and balata balls ... if the pro courses played as long as they do today ?      Would just like to know what the lengths played were in those days versus today ... thx

6400-6800 yards sounds about right.

The only famous course in Arnold's time frame I played, in his time frame, was Cherry Hills, played it a few times growing up and was out there every day for the 78 US Open.  It was then a par 72, not over 7000 yards even at altitude which is what 12% shorter or so from sea level where I live now. 7000 yards then, even in Denver, was a beast, don't even remember any courses that long, maybe Hiwan (what a cool course that was. Hey you Colorado people, is Hiwan still there? What's it like?)

Haven't played Cherry Hills since the 80's, way before the course do-overs but saw it on TV when they played the BMW there this year. I remember in 1978 pros hitting driver 4,5,6 iron to 14 which was maybe 440 or so back then, a monster. 12 looked like the same tees as years ago, where we hit 3 irons and pros hit 4 and 5 irons, they were hitting smooth 7 irons now. 5 was a pretty tough 2 shots par 5 for pros, now its a routine par 4 from the same tees that was a par 5 in my day.

Doesn't seem right that as a 58 year old weekend slasher I hit it farther now, altitude adjusted, than I did as a 3 handicap in my early twenties. If I tried to swing like that now I'd be in traction for weeks---

And since I mentioned Cherry Hills, I hate what they did to that course. They 'Torrey Pines South" ed it, got rid of the small greens, deep bunkers, old time feel, etc. and put in greens the size of a city block.  I hate that, the tradition and places of famous old shots are gone. I've only played Torrey south once since the re-do, it was really disappointing to me. I hope Phil doesn't ruin Torrey north, it's still a really neat old timey course.

thx guys - interesting ...

From the wikipedia page of Augusta National:

Lengths of the course for The Masters at the start of each decade:

Some courses, though, have not changed much.  Pebble Beach, for example, is right at 7k and has been somewhere close to 6900 or so for as long as I can remember.  They did completely redesign the 5th hole a few years ago but for other reasons, not length.

You are the first person I've heard that felt this way.  As far as I can remember, the only significant changes they made were to #3 and #14.  They pushed they greens to the edge of the cliffs to make for a couple of dramatic holes.

Otherwise, all they did was re-work the bunkers, re-contour the greens to allow for more pin placement options, and add some extra tee boxes to make the course longer for the UP Open.  I think the changes all added greatly to the course.

Just out of curiousity, what, specifically, do you think they did to ruin the course?

In general, they made the greens huge and took out the bunkering style that is still in place on the north course. I'm sure the USGA liked all the new possible pin placements, but it changed the feel of the course from old, small and intimate to something "modern" that just isn't close to the same. Kinda like if they rebuilt Pebble with bigger greens. Can you picture #7 or #8 at Pebble with a green 2x bigger?  I always thought both Torrey courses had a Pebble feel to them before the changes, similar grass, architectural style, etc. but now only the north feels that way to me.

Specifically, the big changes to me were 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10, 12, 14, 15. Didn't play the new tee on 13 or 16. 14 in particular was a really cool little two level hourglass green, not any more.

None of the changes for the better, IMO. But if what they were looking for was a US open course, they got it. A better golf course, though, for normal folks? Not at all. I don't see how a regular handicapper has the skill to enjoy the new south, unless a 15 handicap shooting over 100 is fun. But they have no trouble getting folks to pay out the nose to play the south, so what do I know

And if Phil blows up the style of the north course, it'll be doubly disappointing!

FWIW, I was really pleased to see the USGA go retro at Pinehurst #2 this year. Hopefully that will be a continuing pattern going forward.

Hey, it's for the experience.

Fair enough.  I've played it a few times on either side of the remodel and thought they did nothing but good things to it.  But, to each his own.

That's disappointing, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Good on Pinehurst at least for protecting the traditions of that course---

with all the hype of the retro for number 2, the waste areas never really came into play at the open. One could argue that it may have made it easier than some of the penalizing deep rough the Mike Davis had  set up elsewhere.  .

I played number 2 before the open, the greens were nasty as far as holding, I 3 putted quite a bit.  but the so called waste bunkers and natural areas were OK- they looked nice.

I think that the "look" of the waste areas was what would be appealing to me, that it had the same look that it had 80 years ago, a Scottish look. Anybody can grow the rough up thick and green, but the visuals of the old design had to be really neat to experience from the ground as you played. And if the course played hard and fast, even better.

Must have been really fun for you. I got to play Cherry Hills the week after the US Open in 1978, and it was an experience to say the least, but still not the same as playing just before the tournament. To get to play a course that is being prepared for a major tournament, that has to be a real treat and some neat memories. Fun!

Oh I totally agree, the look of #2 looked like art on canvas. It was stunning. When we played it we had some quick moving clouds, so sometimes it would be muted then within seconds it would be bright crystal clear sunshine. It was fun in challenging sort of way, we could not play all the holes from the championship tees, some of the tee boxes were closed to the public. I have played several US Open courses. The one course that was as close to the conditions and play of a real US open, was Bethpage black, rough, fairway width and conditions were very close if not the same. kiawah island was very close too ( PGA championship)

Found this webpage:

PGA Tour Driving Distance Over The Decades

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2011/11/30/pga-tour-driving-distance-over-the-decades.html

Here are the yardages from the 1962 and 2007 U.S. Opens at Oakmont CC.

Note: 1962 was played at par 71 and 2007 at par 70.

These yardages are taken from a 1993 Golf Digest calendar:

Doral: 6,939 yds

Winged Foot West Course: 6,956yds

Augusta National:  6,905yds

Oakmont: 6,996

As recent as 20yrs ago, many of the great courses still played to under 7,000yds.

I belonged to a club that was built in 1929 and had not changed much in length since its inception based on pictures and drwawings..  From the tips it is 6752 and has 6 holes well over 400 yards - not too difficult for Rory or Tiger, but an ablsolute monster for the club members with hickory shafts and golf balls that do not travel like today's.  I am amazed that golfers were able to play the course well back then and the the ball-striking must have been as close to perfect as possible.

Over the years I have had the pleasure of playing on some of the older, and newer courses used by the professionals in the different eras of golf. I agree that older courses were some what shorter compared to the new ones being used. However, what I have noticed is a bigger change in the square footage on the greens. Based on those older/newer tracts I have played, the older greens seem to be much smaller on average.

Of course yesteryear's greens were not much better than today's fairways in some instances.

A good example for me is Winterwood, and TPC Summerlin both located in Vegas. Winterwood was used as regular tour stop a few decades ago. TPC Summerlin is used now. Winterwood has not been changed that much over the years other than a name change, and the reversing of the 9s. It's greens are tiny compared to some of those TPC greens. I hit more GIRs  when playing the TPC course.

Winterwood/Desert Rose is closed right now, while getting a complete change over due to some flood control work. I am patiently waiting to see what they have done to it, since it was my home course for almost 20 years.