Value of Keeping Your Head Down? (Or Not)

HeadDown · December 13, 2014

After reading the bylaws I discovered I came in like a bull in a China shop. Be that as it may...I am HeaddownGolf...cannot change that. I've been consumed with the development of this project for years. Every face I put on the internet at this time is the logo I created...a golf ball in the shape of an H.

We are not a company yet. We have kept this project under wraps until now. It is only in the past 2-3 weeks that I've begun to populate my website and establish a twitter presence.

There is nothing to sell at this time. We won't manufacture for months.

I'm interested in feedback on the application we have conceived. I'm not here to sell anything...yet. There is no chance I can pay for a "sponsor" as a company at this time. We are an idea without a product yet.

I don't know if this thing will sell. I know it works because I am the ONLY one who has ever tested the device, and it has trained me consistency. Keeping my head down through impact has eliminated wayward shots by a factor of...a lot.

I cannot participate in this forum without discussing what I'm consumed with at this time.

Just wanted some feedback...

Regards,

Kevin

**Ernest Jones** · December 13, 2014

Every face I put on the internet at this time is the logo I created...a golf ball in the shape of an H.

Must be tough to putt with.

**Phil McGleno** · December 13, 2014

Been teaching for a few decades.-Have told precisely zero-nil-nada people to keep their head down during their swing. At setup-Sure! During the swing-Not a chance.

HeadDown · December 13, 2014

Been teaching for a few decades.-Have told precisely zero-nil-nada people to keep their head down during their swing.

At setup-Sure! During the swing-Not a chance.

Well that is odd...when you see all the photos and videos on my website showing precisely the fact that most of them DO keep their heads down. Look at my about page and explain what you see. Look at the video of Rickie Fowler on the video page and tell me what you see.

I'm interested in what you come back with.

Regards,

Kevin

**Phil McGleno** · December 13, 2014

Annika and Duval didnt-btw. Im not going to your site.-I have never told a student to keep their head down.-Heck some of my students keep their heads down too long and it slows their rotation through impact.-This doesnt solve a problem for real golfers.-If you fix the thing that is pulling their head up then they dont have to try to just keep their head down. Trying to keep your head down limits speed.[quote name="HeadDown" url="/t/78618/forum-rules#post_1084856"] Well that is odd...when you see all the photos and videos on my website showing precisely the fact that most of them DO keep their heads down. Look at my about page and explain what you see. Look at the video of Rickie Fowler on the video page and tell me what you see. [/quote]

HeadDown · December 13, 2014

Annika and Duval didnt-btw.

Im not going to your site.-I have never told a student to keep their head down.-Heck some of my students keep their heads down too long and it slows their rotation through impact.-This doesnt solve a problem for real golfers.-If you fix the thing that is pulling their head up then they dont have to try to just keep their head down. Trying to keep your head down limits speed.

Annika is always an example...one of very few. Trying to keep your head down is not the issue because with my solution you are not physically inhibited. The screen flashes an image at impact...so all you have to do is see a glance at the image before release and follow thru. You won't look at the photos and videos that visually conflict with your POV.

Go to youtube and search this:

Rickie Fowler - Slow Motion Knock-Down Shot

you will see and hear commentary regarding his head position

**Ernest Jones** · December 13, 2014

I think Phil's point is that "lifting your head" is a symptom not a root cause. Fix what is causing you to lift your head. A big mistake a lot of us make is picking the wrong piece to fix. It's all related and, more often than not, the thing you should work on happens much earlier in the chain than the piece that leaps out at you.

HeadDown · December 13, 2014

I think Phil's point is that "lifting your head" is a symptom not a root cause. Fix what is causing you to lift your head.

A big mistake a lot of us make is picking the wrong piece to fix. It's all related and, more often than not, the thing you should work on happens much earlier in the chain than the piece that leaps out at you.

What I've found is that by staying down...it puts a hell of a lot more power into the shot. Only way to stay down is to keep your head down. Some may argue with the nuances of what that means, but bottom line is your head weighs about 12 lbs and you want that behind and down on the ball.

Can we post youtube videos here?

***iacas*** · December 13, 2014

What I've found is that by staying down...it puts a hell of a lot more power into the shot. Only way to stay down is to keep your head down. Some may argue with the nuances of what that means, but bottom line is your head weighs about 12 lbs and you want that behind and down on the ball.

@HeadDown , I'm with @Phil McGleno on this one.

Golfers lifting their head is a result of something else going wrong, in my experience.

Rickie is already moving his head here (it's rotated several degrees from being relatively still at impact and continues). Let's call this A9 (right arm horizontal). The torso has turned about 70° by now and the neck will need to move soon because most people can't turn their neck too much more. So it seems like a good position to judge when someone's head must begin moving in a "normal swing."

This point in the swing is roughly 1/10th of a second after impact. (I checked the swings of other good players, from Tiger Woods to myself, hitting shots with clubhead speeds of 70-90 MPH, and it's all about 1/12th of a second, or 0.083, give or take 0.02 seconds).

Let's take a look at the product in question:

The image is still on the screen until 14/25 of a second later. This is probably required because a golfer has to both see and recognize the image. To see the image, they have to look at the ball, hit it, then look at the screen, and will likely need a fair amount of time to stare at the screen so that they can recognize the image before it disappears… which seems to me to be well after the point at which most golfers will NEED to turn their heads.

FWIW, I'm simply trying to provide some instructor feedback here. I don't foresee ever using this with golfers (outside of perhaps training younger kids who putt to stay looking down a bit - a putting stroke is obviously not as dynamic or fast as a full swing). I fix the root cause and this, rather than fixing a root cause, it appears to me that it would actually cause problems.

What do I mean by that? While I'm with @Phil McGleno in saying I've never taught players to KEEP their head down, I have taught many players to let their heads turn SOONER so that they can maintain speed and continue to a good follow-through. People who are overly conscious about "keeping their head down" limit their speed through the impact zone and a few have had sore necks from trying to keep their head down while their torso wants to rotate through.

I'm also going to move some posts to a new thread because, while I appreciate how you've sneakily started a discussion about your product, it is off topic for the "Forum Rules" thread you started.

HeadDown · December 13, 2014

@HeadDown, I'm with @Phil McGleno on this one.

Golfers lifting their head is a result of something else going wrong, in my experience.

Rickie is already moving his head here (it's rotated several degrees from being relatively still at impact and continues). Let's call this A9 (right arm horizontal). The torso has turned about 70° by now and the neck will need to move soon because most people can't turn their neck too much more. So it seems like a good position to judge when someone's head must begin moving in a "normal swing."

This point in the swing is roughly 1/10th of a second after impact. (I checked the swings of other good players, from Tiger Woods to myself, hitting shots with clubhead speeds of 70-90 MPH, and it's all about 1/12th of a second, or 0.083, give or take 0.02 seconds).

Let's take a look at the product in question:

The image is still on the screen until 14/25 of a second later. This is probably required because a golfer has to both see and recognize the image. To see the image, they have to look at the ball, hit it, then look at the screen, and will likely need a fair amount of time to stare at the screen so that they can recognize the image before it disappears… which seems to me to be well after the point at which most golfers will NEED to turn their heads.

FWIW, I'm simply trying to provide some instructor feedback here. I don't foresee ever using this with golfers (outside of perhaps training younger kids who putt to stay looking down a bit - a putting stroke is obviously not as dynamic or fast as a full swing). I fix the root cause and this, rather than fixing a root cause, it appears to me that it would actually cause problems.

What do I mean by that? While I'm with @Phil McGleno in saying I've never taught players to KEEP their head down, I have taught many players to let their heads turn SOONER so that they can maintain speed and continue to a good follow-through. People who are overly conscious about "keeping their head down" limit their speed through the impact zone and a few have had sore necks from trying to keep their head down while their torso wants to rotate through.

I'm also going to move some posts to a new thread because, while I appreciate how you've sneakily started a discussion about your product, it is off topic for the "Forum Rules" thread you started.

This is great dialog and really appreciate the time and effort you put into this...thank you.

I'd like to address the proposition that the golfer will/or must view the LCD image until it goes blank...not true. LCDs work at the speed of light...faster than a golf swing. Once you glance the image...and you will see it if your eyes are in the vicinity of where the ball was...you release as your club and body turn takes you through the shot.

What is the root cause of lifting ones head? I say it's mental. If you keep your eyes in the area until you see an image...you are mentally fixing Rule #1 as outlined in your 5SK instruction.

HeadDown · December 13, 2014

Also let me note that perhaps you have a good point. Maybe we should test with .25 of a second instead of .5 seconds of flash. This is useful feedback to consider.

Kevin

**Ernest Jones** · December 13, 2014

I posted this elsewhere, but it's probably better here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadDown

I'm here to argue until I'm blue in the face that keeping your head down through impact is vital.

I sincerely hope that does not mean, "I am steadfastly going to ignore any information that contradicts my position."

I used to "stand up" pretty badly around impact, losing my spine angle (or more accurately, my inclination to the ground) and failing to continue my pivot. I tried a lot different ways to address the symptom (standing up) and was able, in a fairly short time, to stop standing up and achieve a better "position" at impact. The thing is, because I wasn't addressing the root problem (my sweetspot path absolutely sucked) it didn't do anything for my swing at all, I was achieving the "position" I wanted, but HOW I got there and WHERE I was going from there still sucked even if the look of the "position" was better. My instructor got me to drop all the tricks and feels I had developed to achieve the right "look" and got me to fix my path which in turn fixed the "standing up" part without me making any conscious effort to change it. Fix the cause, not the effect, otherwise you'll just be chasing your own tail forever and ever.

Here's an interesting thread that talks about the difference between achieving the right "look" at a given position versus making the right "motion" that produces that look as a by-product (which you could also call a symptom).

I'm sure you're pretty disappointed that the general feedback to your concept has been that it's the wrong approach, but hopefully you'll see this as constructive and come up with an even better product.

FWIW, I think shortening the flash time is a good improvement and I can see how this could be a useful device provided it's used correctly. If the golfer is aware of, and working on the root problem and using your device simply as a reference point of some kind...without getting caught up in the symptom... The danger, IMO, would be the temptation to cheat and fool yourself into thinking you're working on the right piece.

**DrvFrShow** · December 13, 2014

The head coming up is a symptom of the chest lifting before the ball is struck. This usually happens when a person is trying to "kill the ball" to make up for lost ground after a poor hit, thus compounding their problems, when what they should do is put the poor shot behind them and simply hit a normal shot with an appropriate club (e.g. if your lie sucks don't try to hit a 3 wood just because you feel like you have to hit the ball over 200 yds). Trying to kill the ball only ends in another disaster.

Here is an example of one of the most fluid swings on either tour. She's usually in the top 10. Her head is steady through impact position but follows her shoulder on the follow through.

***iacas*** · December 13, 2014

Originally Posted by HeadDown

I'd like to address the proposition that the golfer will/or must view the LCD image until it goes blank...not true. LCDs work at the speed of light...faster than a golf swing. Once you glance the image...and you will see it if your eyes are in the vicinity of where the ball was...you release as your club and body turn takes you through the shot.

I didn't think I said you HAD to, just that it was likely that you can't look at something only for a super tiny fraction of a second and recognize it. You have to look at the image long enough to know what it was.

Also, I had written 0.14 seconds above, but it's actually 14/25 of a second. This video is 25 frames per second.

Which makes this relevant…

In this image, the ball is gone at 28s8f (28 seconds, frame 8) and the image first appears at 28s13f.

That's five frames later. 5/25 = 0.2 seconds. That's when the screen FIRST shows an image (and it's after the ball is struck and the ball and club have exited the viewing frame of the video, so, it could be a bit longer).

Above I said that the average (of about ten good players I looked at) are moving their heads already at 0.08 seconds. If the image first appears 0.12 seconds after that , then… your device would seem to be training people to keep their heads down an inordinately long amount of time).

I imagine your device uses sound. The only acceptable way I foresee this type of thing working is if you have some sort of "trip" (like an infrared beam or something) farther back along the route of the downswing so that the image flashes at or even just prior to impact, not 1/5th of a second AFTER impact.

What is the root cause of lifting ones head? I say it's mental.

IMO there are many, many root causes of someone lifting their head up. Almost none of them are what I would call "mental."

Plus, I rarely see golfers lifting their heads up and looking away from the ball prior to impact. It's a much bigger problem to see golfers keeping their eyes downward toward the ball far too long.

In other words, a training aid that helped golfers rotate their necks to let their eyes come up would be more beneficial to more golfers, IMO.

Please refrain from directly discussing your product, your successes at marketing it, etc. We aren't interested in that discussion.

**Phil McGleno** · December 13, 2014

I dont have much to add but I wanted to say that I like this post and agree.-I spend more time trying to get people to rotate through better-WIth bodies and chest and hips and head/neck-than trying to get them to keep their head down. Are you really an 11 handicap?-Perhaps you should see a good instructor rather than try to come up with something?[quote name="iacas" url="/t/78627/value-of-keeping-your-head-down-or-not#post_1084906"] I didn't think I said you HAD to, just that it was likely that you can't look at something only for a super tiny fraction of a second and recognize it. You have to look at the image long enough to know what it was. Also, I had written 0.14 seconds above, but it's actually 14/25 of a second. This video is 25 frames per second. Which makes this relevant… [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/110447/] [/URL] In this image, the ball is gone at 28s8f (28 seconds, frame 8) and the image first appears at 28s13f. That's five frames later. 5/25 = 0.2 seconds. That's when the screen FIRST shows an image (and it's after the ball is struck and the ball and club have exited the viewing frame of the video, so, it could be a bit longer). Above I said that the average (of about ten good players I looked at) are moving their heads already at 0.08 seconds. If the image first appears 0.12 seconds after that , then… your device would seem to be training people to keep their heads down an inordinately long amount of time). I imagine your device uses sound. The only acceptable way I foresee this type of thing working is if you have some sort of "trip" (like an infrared beam or something) farther back along the route of the downswing so that the image flashes at or even just prior to impact, not 1/5th of a second AFTER impact. IMO there are many, many root causes of someone lifting their head up. Almost none of them are what I would call "mental." Plus, I rarely see golfers lifting their heads up and looking away from the ball prior to impact. It's a much bigger problem to see golfers keeping their eyes downward toward the ball far too long. In other words, a training aid that helped golfers rotate their necks to let their eyes come up would be more beneficial to more golfers, IMO. Please refrain from directly discussing your product, your successes at marketing it, etc. We aren't interested in that discussion. [/quote]

**mvmac** · December 13, 2014

What is the root cause of lifting ones head? I say it's mental.

Strongly disagree. It's a reaction to bad sequencing/mechanics that occurred well before impact.

Also have to agree with @iacas , a more common problem is for players to keep the eyes down for too long.

HeadDown · December 13, 2014

I'll be leaving now...this place is hostile to anything that doesn't pertain to your theories.

Good Day Mates...

**boogielicious** · December 13, 2014

I'll be leaving now...this place is hostile to anything that doesn't pertain to your theories.

Good Day Mates...

Huh? I see no hostilities, just discussion @HeadDown

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Value of Keeping Your Head Down? (Or Not)

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Rickie Fowler - Slow Motion Knock-Down Shot

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