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Titleist Video on Effects of Dimples on a Golf Ball


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From Titleist.   Go to linked site for video.  They show the effect of having dimples on half the ball and no dimples.

http://www.titleist.com/teamtitleist/b/tourblog/archive/2014/12/18/learning-to-fly-dimples-and-golf-ball-design.aspx

Quote:
Why do golf balls have dimples? Would a golf ball without dimples fly farther? And why are dimples so important?

These are just a few questions that we hear from time-to-time, so we decided to catch up with the aerodynamics experts inside of our golf ball R&D; team to get a masters class on the topic.

And like any good professor, they were more than ready with some pretty cool teaching aids to help us get an even better understanding of the role dimples play in the overall performance of a golf ball.

If you want to see what happens when we hit a golf ball that only has dimples on one side or watch the flight of a dimple-free golf ball, check out this video and you’ll walk away with answers to all of the questions above – along with a deeper appreciation for how a golf ball flies.

Scott

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Good quick demonstration but I can't help but feel this will somehow lead to the claim that the Titilest Prov1 will perform for my 63 year old 18 HCP - I guess their 2014 marketing campaign had a long term negative effect on me!

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Good quick demonstration but I can't help but feel this will somehow lead to the claim that the Titilest Prov1 will perform for my 63 year old 18 HCP - I guess their 2014 marketing campaign had a long term negative effect on me!


Why wouldn't it perform well for you? Those ads basically mean to say that your distance and ball speed are going to be what they are, but around the greens, a Pro V1 gives you advantages (spin) if you want to use them over an NXT or something.


I have some golf balls without dimples.

http://thesandtrap.com/b/balls/caesar_featherie_dimpleless_golf_ball_review

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

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It would have been neat if they had gone into some more info about the dimples:  How number of dimples changes the ball flight or response (for example, the Velocity has 328 dimples, DT Solo has 376 dimples, and ProV1 has 352 dimples, and ProV1x has 328 dimples), and how they decided which ball should have how many.

Would also be interesting to see effects of different shapes of dimples (hexagonal vs. tetrahedral, dimple in dimple).  But that might be too close to advertising against (or for) specific competitors.

Craig
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It would have been neat if they had gone into some more info about the dimples:  How number of dimples changes the ball flight or response (for example, the Velocity has 328 dimples, DT Solo has 376 dimples, and ProV1 has 352 dimples, and ProV1x has 328 dimples), and how they decided which ball should have how many.

Would also be interesting to see effects of different shapes of dimples (hexagonal vs. tetrahedral, dimple in dimple).  But that might be too close to advertising against (or for) specific competitors.

I think most of that is proprietary.  The dimple design is what they spend all their time on in regards to aerodynamics.

Scott

Titleist, Edel, Scotty Cameron Putter, Snell - AimPoint - Evolvr - MirrorVision

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Why wouldn't it perform well for you? Those ads basically mean to say that your distance and ball speed are going to be what they are, but around the greens, a Pro V1 gives you advantages (spin) if you want to use them over an NXT or something.

I have some golf balls without dimples.

http://thesandtrap.com/b/balls/caesar_featherie_dimpleless_golf_ball_review

I am an 18 HCP and you list yours as "Pro" so we do not play the same type of game.  The balls that perform for me are the balls that best support the type of swing that I have, which the Prov1 or Prov1x (or any other tour ball) do not.   The word "perform" does not mean spin and Titleist is being deceptive in it ads.  There is no doubt that a Prov1 will spin more for me, and on a slightly mis-hit drive and I have a much greater chance of being in the rough or worse than a ball like the Supersoft.    As far as approaches to the green, I do not hit a high ball and rely on some roll to get the distance to the pin.  The Prov1 stops on a dime leaving me 20-30 feet short.  I could take an extra club but that is a disadvantage for me.

Bottom line, the Prov1 does not perform for me, I have tried both versions over the last couple of years.   If I win them at an outing or get them as a gift I will try and swap them for a ball that does perform for me - many golfers are thrilled to get the Prov's.  But Titleist's attempt to portray the Prov1 as a ball that performs (well, what we really mean is spin...wink wink) is beneath a company with such a long reputation as the top golf ball manufacturer.

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I am an 18 HCP and you list yours as "Pro" so we do not play the same type of game.  The balls that perform for me are the balls that best support the type of swing that I have, which the Prov1 or Prov1x (or any other tour ball) do not. The word "perform" does not mean spin and Titleist is being deceptive in it ads.  There is no doubt that a Prov1 will spin more for me, and on a slightly mis-hit drive and I have a much greater chance of being in the rough or worse than a ball like the Supersoft.    As far as approaches to the green, I do not hit a high ball and rely on some roll to get the distance to the pin.  The Prov1 stops on a dime leaving me 20-30 feet short.  I could take an extra club but that is a disadvantage for me.

You're missing my point. I'm not talking specifically about YOUR game. If spin leaves you 20-30 feet short on pitch shots, then yeah, you might be fine playing a surlyn type ball.

My point is that:

  • There's zero truth to the idea that a softer ball flies farther for slower swing speeds, or that you have to swing fast to properly "compress" a Pro V1/V1x.
  • On short game shots, a urethane covered ball will spin more and thus be desirable (for many) over a surlyn-type ball.

You said "the word 'perform' does not mean spin" and I certainly count "spin" as one of the performance aspects of a golf ball, and I think virtually every other golfer in the world does as well.

You may choose to play a surlyn-style ball, and that may be best for you, but I don't agree that the marketing is deceptive. The balls fly just as far as other balls and have more spin around the greens, which many players of all levels appreciate.

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Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

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I think most of that is proprietary.  The dimple design is what they spend all their time on in regards to aerodynamics.

Yeah, I figured that.  But I would hope they could discuss/demonstrate it in generalities.  If nothing else, for their marketing.  Something like, "here's why we think 328 dimples works great for our Velocity, and why 376 works better for our DT Solo."

I'm not holding my breath, though.  Just curious.

You're missing my point. I'm not talking specifically about YOUR game. If spin leaves you 20-30 feet short on pitch shots, then yeah, you might be fine playing a surlyn type ball.

My point is that:

There's zero truth to the idea that a softer ball flies farther for slower swing speeds, or that you have to swing fast to properly "compress" a Pro V1/V1x.

On short game shots, a urethane covered ball will spin more and thus be desirable (for many) over a surlyn-type ball.

You said "the word 'perform' does not mean spin" and I certainly count "spin" as one of the performance aspects of a golf ball, and I think virtually every other golfer in the world does as well.

You may choose to play a surlyn-style ball, and that may be best for you, but I don't agree that the marketing is deceptive. The balls fly just as far as other balls and have more spin around the greens, which many players of all levels appreciate.

But then is the Bridgestone "you have to compress the ball to boom the ball" advertising misleading or deceptive?  (Ignoring the "compress" vs. "deform" difference.)  You know more than I do about the physics of it (and I trust you more than I trust a ball manufacturer), but Bridgestone seems to want us to believe the opposite.

Craig
What's in the :ogio: Silencer bag (on the :clicgear: cart)
Driver: :callaway: Razr Fit 10.5°  
5 Wood: :tmade: Burner  
Hybrid: :cobra: Baffler DWS 20°
Irons: :ping: G400 
Wedge: :ping: Glide 2.0 54° ES grind 
Putter: :heavyputter:  midweight CX2
:aimpoint:,  :bushnell: Tour V4

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You're missing my point. I'm not talking specifically about YOUR game. If spin leaves you 20-30 feet short on pitch shots, then yeah, you might be fine playing a surlyn type ball.

My point is that:

There's zero truth to the idea that a softer ball flies farther for slower swing speeds, or that you have to swing fast to properly "compress" a Pro V1/V1x.

On short game shots, a urethane covered ball will spin more and thus be desirable (for many) over a surlyn-type ball.

You said "the word 'perform' does not mean spin" and I certainly count "spin" as one of the performance aspects of a golf ball, and I think virtually every other golfer in the world does as well.

You may choose to play a surlyn-style ball, and that may be best for you, but I don't agree that the marketing is deceptive. The balls fly just as far as other balls and have more spin around the greens, which many players of all levels appreciate.

Actually I played urethene golf balls for most of the past 2 seasons (Gamer Tour and Maxfli U/3) but neither of these balls stopped on a dime like the Prov1 but for my swing did roll out some and stayed on the green as opposed to a TF XL or similar distance ball.  I did experiment with the Lethal, Prov1x, and Project (a) but the spin was high for my swing and cost me a couple of strokes.  And sure, spin is a performance aspect of the golf ball but it can be a positive or a negative depending on your swing.  Pro type spin is a negative for me and a ball like this does not perform the way I want, but a moderate amount of spin does perform well for me.  So to say that the Prov1 performs for eveyone's swing is misleading at best.

I understand that a tour level ball with high spin is very desirable for most low single digit handicappers right into the pro ranks, but try to remember what a minute % of the golfing world that you are. Titleist makes and sells the NXT Tour (which I like), Velocity, and DT SoLo  because the Prov1 is not the appropriate ball for the vast majority of golfers.  I say it does not perform "well" for most golfer's games and to strongly infer that high spin is the right performance for all golfers is wrong.  The millions of dollars spent on television ads touting the Prov1 as the ball that performs for everyone was meant for golfers like myself and not those of your ability - you already know that high spin is good for you and play the ProV1 or similar ball.

I believe that our disconnect on this point reflects the vast difference in perspective between a pro level golfer and an 18 HCP.  The balls, and to a large degree the clubs, that perform for us are likely very different.  I have replaced my 2 thru 6 irons with hybrids and you are likely using blades which allow you to control and manipulate the ball in ways that I cannot (along with 99% of US golfers).  .

As to your point that compression, swing speed, and the resulting distance have no correlation, it is couterintuitive to me, but my longest drive with my 90mph SS last season was with a Supersoft followed closely by a Prov1x.

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Just realized which thread this is in. So…

But then is the Bridgestone "you have to compress the ball to boom the ball" advertising misleading or deceptive?  (Ignoring the "compress" vs. "deform" difference.)  You know more than I do about the physics of it (and I trust you more than I trust a ball manufacturer), but Bridgestone seems to want us to believe the opposite.

The basic facts of the matter are this:

  • A firmer ball will almost always rebound with more ball speed.
  • Softer balls can sometimes be hit farther because they generate more spin. If you swing slowly, more spin can help keep the ball in the air a bit longer.

That's really about it. It gets more complicated than that, but never really gets too far away from that. Cover materials can change launch angles and spin to differing degrees (firmer covers on balls tend to launch a little higher, but that's more noticeable in the shorter irons than with the driver).

Actually I played urethene golf balls for most of the past 2 seasons

I mean no offense by this, but I'm still not talking about your game. Choose the ball you like the best.

I'm responding to your "deceptive" claims.

So to say that the Prov1 performs for eveyone's swing is misleading at best.

I disagree. It performs - you simply want a different KIND of performance. Or to play different shots…

I understand that a tour level ball with high spin is very desirable for most low single digit handicappers right into the pro ranks, but try to remember what a minute % of the golfing world that you are.

This isn't about me or you. I haven't mentioned my game at all.

I say it does not perform "well" for most golfer's games and to strongly infer that high spin is the right performance for all golfers is wrong.

I didn't do that. I simply said that spin is one of the measures of a ball's performance.

I believe that our disconnect on this point reflects the vast difference in perspective between a pro level golfer and an 18 HCP.  The balls, and to a large degree the clubs, that perform for us are likely very different.

I disagree, and would suggest instead that all balls and clubs (from the big name companies anyway) "perform" pretty well. Some are simply better fits at the individual level. You play a type of game that suits a lower spinning ball. That doesn't mean that it's "deceptive" marketing to claim that a Pro V1x can "perform" for all levels of golfers.

As to your point that compression, swing speed, and the resulting distance have no correlation, it is couterintuitive to me, but my longest drive with my 90mph SS last season was with a Supersoft followed closely by a Prov1x.

It may seem counter-intuitive, but at the end of the day it's true. Firmer balls tend to rebound from the club with higher ball speeds and less spin. Less energy is transformed into deformation of the ball and/or spin.

Cool video.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

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Quote:

Originally Posted by boogielicious

I think most of that is proprietary.  The dimple design is what they spend all their time on in regards to aerodynamics.

Yeah, I figured that.  But I would hope they could discuss/demonstrate it in generalities.  If nothing else, for their marketing.  Something like, "here's why we think 328 dimples works great for our Velocity, and why 376 works better for our DT Solo."

I'm not holding my breath, though.  Just curious.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

You're missing my point. I'm not talking specifically about YOUR game. If spin leaves you 20-30 feet short on pitch shots, then yeah, you might be fine playing a surlyn type ball.

My point is that:

There's zero truth to the idea that a softer ball flies farther for slower swing speeds, or that you have to swing fast to properly "compress" a Pro V1/V1x.

On short game shots, a urethane covered ball will spin more and thus be desirable (for many) over a surlyn-type ball.

You said "the word 'perform' does not mean spin" and I certainly count "spin" as one of the performance aspects of a golf ball, and I think virtually every other golfer in the world does as well.

You may choose to play a surlyn-style ball, and that may be best for you, but I don't agree that the marketing is deceptive. The balls fly just as far as other balls and have more spin around the greens, which many players of all levels appreciate.

But then is the Bridgestone "you have to compress the ball to boom the ball" advertising misleading or deceptive?  (Ignoring the "compress" vs. "deform" difference.)  You know more than I do about the physics of it (and I trust you more than I trust a ball manufacturer), but Bridgestone seems to want us to believe the opposite.


They did have a video a few years back with the head of R&D.;  He didn't go into proprietary stuff, but mentioned how they wanted to have the dimples break up the boundary layer to create the optimum lift.  It is a balance between how much spin you can generate with the surface material and the lift you want to get.

Scott

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Iacas - I appreciate your detailed responses and by no means take any offense to your points.  I do however, disagree on the marketing objectives of Titleist's recent ad campaign for the ProV1 and firmly believe from watching them that they are targeting golfers for whom the ProV1 is not the best choice hoping they will buy them.  Sure, they will spin more for most golfers but from my observation they strongly infer that this is a good thing for all golfers.  I found the ads insulting and suspect I am not alone.

I also used your and my game as examples to highlight what good performance is for tour level players and the rest of us.   Nothing personal in any of this, just trying to explain why some of us are unhappy with Titleist's sales tactics for the ProV1.

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Iacas - I appreciate your detailed responses and by no means take any offense to your points.  I do however, disagree on the marketing objectives of Titleist's recent ad campaign for the ProV1 and firmly believe from watching them that they are targeting golfers for whom the ProV1 is not the best choice hoping they will buy them.  Sure, they will spin more for most golfers but from my observation they strongly infer that this is a good thing for all golfers.  I found the ads insulting and suspect I am not alone.

I also used your and my game as examples to highlight what good performance is for tour level players and the rest of us.   Nothing personal in any of this, just trying to explain why some of us are unhappy with Titleist's sales tactics for the ProV1.


I think you are reading more into their ads than is really there.  They don't make grand claims on distance or dramatically lowering your score by just using their ball.  Titleist doesn't tell you that because you are not that good, you should use a special ball for not so good players. They are very up front about the actual distance difference between their lowest cost "distance" ball and the ProV1 in terms of distance (a mere 4 yards).  It is all there on their website.

If you can afford them, the ProV1 and ProV1x will perform well for many different player types.  I don't find the extra spin to hurt my long game at all.  It does however really help approach shots, and shots around the green.  Titleist tells players to chose a ball from the green back.  Other manufacturers, who make premium balls will also tell you this.  I see no difference in the ads from any of the top ball manufacturers in the way they are trying to sell their product.

Scott

Titleist, Edel, Scotty Cameron Putter, Snell - AimPoint - Evolvr - MirrorVision

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Straight off the Titleist web-site today a statement that I have no problem with:

Performance is proven on every shot. More players trust the performance of Titleist golf balls than any other ball in the world. At Titleist, we deliver performance in our golf balls through rigorous research and development, quality manufacturing, and player testing and validation. Together these efforts result in the world's best performing golf balls, designed to help you play better and shoot lower scores. Whether you are a tour professional or a weekend player, at Titleist, we know all golfers want the same thing: Performance.

It appears that they have adjusted their message which sounds more like "Titleist makes a golf ball that will perform for you" which I believe is true - the NXT Tour does perform for me and I played it for years.  I have since found a couple of balls that I prefer but it does not take away from the fact that Titleist makes golf balls that will perform for a wide range of golfers.  This approach strikes me as much more sincere than saying the "ProV1 can perform for you".

By the way folks, I do not lose sleep over any of this.  I just enjoy keeping up with the latest in golf ball technology and experimenting to find a ball that performs best for my swing.  I have found that it is important not only to play the balls best suited to a golfer, but perhaps more important to not play the balls that are clearly not suited to a golfer's game - I hope that makes sense!.

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