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The movie Whiplash and golf and practice


nevets88
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I've been thinking about the movie Whiplash a lot the past few months. It's basically Full Metal Jacket meets jazz band and if you've seen the trailers, the abusive teacher could easily be your football coach or even Sgt. Hartman from FMJ.

Here's what the director said about practice:

The Dissolve: You’ve said that part of the impetus behind Whiplash was processing your own high-school band experience, and trying to resolve the clash between “Music should be fun!” and “Artistic greatness is worth any cost.” Did you reach any conclusions in writing or shooting the film?

Damien Chazelle: That’s a really interesting question. I guess no. I guess it’s still something I’m not sure about. If you’re going to play music or do any art form, just as a hobby or as purely a source of enjoyment, then yeah, you should enjoy it. But I do believe in pushing yourself. If you actually take the idea of practice seriously—to me, practice should not be about enjoyment. Some people think of practice as “You do what you’re good at, and that’s naturally fun.” True practice is actually about just doing what you’re bad at, and working on it, and that’s not fun. Practice is about beating your head against the wall. So if you’re actually serious about getting better at something, there’s always going to be an aspect of it that’s not fun, or not enjoyable. If every single thing is enjoyable, then you’re not pushing yourself hard enough, is probably how I feel. But this movie takes it to a extreme that I do not condone. [Laughs.]

https://thedissolve.com/features/emerging/787-damien-chazelle-on-what-is-and-isnt-ambiguous-abou/

Thoughts, opinions? Is it as bleak as he's making it? Or can fun be had while pursing excellence?

Steve

Kill slow play. Allow walking. Reduce ineffective golf instruction. Use environmentally friendly course maintenance.

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I've never seen the movie, but I guess that doesn't really matter in terms of the question. My opinion, it's not about having fun or not having fun, but simply about motivation. Different people are motivated by different things. Granted, fun is a great motivator, but so is drive, that determination to succeed and pass the next obstacle. I enjoy improving my swing and trying to get better at golf. I won't say it's all fun, but honestly having fun isn't the reason I'm doing it. I'm driven mostly by the challenge of improving and the fun is had as a result of that improvement. I don't agree with the idea that practice is not about enjoyment. If you don't enjoy some aspect of it, you're just not going to do it. You have to get something out of it in order to proceed.

Bill

“By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” - Confucius

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I've never seen the movie, but I guess that doesn't really matter in terms of the question. My opinion, it's not about having fun or not having fun, but simply about motivation. Different people are motivated by different things. Granted, fun is a great motivator, but so is drive, that determination to succeed and pass the next obstacle. I enjoy improving my swing and trying to get better at golf. I won't say it's all fun, but honestly having fun isn't the reason I'm doing it. I'm driven mostly by the challenge of improving and the fun is had as a result of that improvement. I don't agree with the idea that practice is not about enjoyment. If you don't enjoy some aspect of it, you're just not going to do it. You have to get something out of it in order to proceed.

I agree. What the answer leaves open to interpretation is how much of the not enjoyable aspect there is to it. 50%? It's subjective and relative obviously. And how much of a kick/pleasure do you get from hearing the same passage or seeing a ball flight all the time.

Steve

Kill slow play. Allow walking. Reduce ineffective golf instruction. Use environmentally friendly course maintenance.

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For me practicing the easy shots is not a big deal. When ever I can, I sometimes will practice shots that I don't want to have to deal with when on the course. Tough, uneven  lies, chips/pitches with no green to work with.  A tree in my way. Stuff like that. Practicing those types of shots is not fun for me. It's extra work. However, when I leave myself those types of shots during an actual round, (as I often do) , I know how to handle them to a better degree than if I didn't practice them.

Later on today, at my own make shift range, I will be practicing with just my four metal woods, with the goal of landing the ball in a playable area for my next shot. It will be fun because I will be out doors, hitting golf balls at my own leisure. The fact that I will using an abandoned (gravel) parking area, that  might be some what amusing to others (WTH  is he doing? )  who drive by, won't bother me in the least. :-D

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Goals obviously come into it, big time. There are plenty of things I like doing to blow off a little steam where it doesn't matter to me in the slightest how good I am. Then there's golf. That quote speaks to that somewhat, but not completely.

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Hogan has said he always enjoyed practicing. I'm inclined to agree with him. Nothing better than being out on the practice tee, besides actually playing.

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I agree. What the answer leaves open to interpretation is how much of the not enjoyable aspect there is to it. 50%? It's subjective and relative obviously. And how much of a kick/pleasure do you get from hearing the same passage or seeing a ball flight all the time.

I don't think there is a ratio, nor is there a need for one. Even if it was just 1% of a task that's enjoyable, that 1% can provide enough enjoyment to keep you going. For me, if I'm working on a piece, all it takes is the slightest improvement on video and it gives me fuel.

At the same time, you don't want to get stuck feeling like practice is work, but you have to work to get the best out of practice, so it's a bit of a balance. Usually, if what I'm working on becomes too tedious, I'll just switch gears and work on something else, or maybe just do something simply for the fun of it, just to get a mental break. I certainly don't believe in just grinding things out for the sake of it.

I do enjoy hearing the same piece of music over and over again as long as I can play it better and faster each time. There's satisfaction to be gained from learning to do something and then executing. Golf is a bit different for me because the flight does not necessarily indicate that I'm doing what I'm working on correctly, but that's what the camera is for. I spend a lot of time on the range looking at my swing.

Bill

“By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” - Confucius

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There is a lot of new research that says the greatest improvement in any motor skill comes when we enjoy practice. Feeling like practice is work (rote repetition like hitting the same club to the same target over and over) may yield some results, but not as many as if you use drills and games that make practice feel fun.  Chances are you'll never see that exact same shot again in your life as the one you just hit 50 times, so repeating it may not have yielded that much benefit. Results come as a consequence of effective practice and learning routines.

Paul Kaster - 5SK Director of Instruction for Northern New Jersey

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There is a lot of new research that says the greatest improvement in any motor skill comes when we enjoy practice. Feeling like practice is work (rote repetition like hitting the same club to the same target over and over) may yield some results, but not as many as if you use drills and games that make practice feel fun.  Chances are you'll never see that exact same shot again in your life as the one you just hit 50 times, so repeating it may not have yielded that much benefit. Results come as a consequence of effective practice and learning routines.


Seems reasonable. But I have to believe you really appreciate success when you've had to sacrifice - a little anyway. Improvement seems more satisfying after overcoming some level of adversity. I guess in that way, even the frustration that sometimes comes with practice is part of the enjoyment of the entire process.

Jon

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Seems reasonable. But I have to believe you really appreciate success when you've had to sacrifice - a little anyway. Improvement seems more satisfying after overcoming some level of adversity. I guess in that way, even the frustration that sometimes comes with practice is part of the enjoyment of the entire process.

Appreciating success and actually experiencing are two different ideas.  If I want a player to have confidence that will stand up under pressure and enjoy what they do, I don't want them to struggle for very long at all. This from a guy who specializes to some degree in coaching junior golfers.  You can get a lot done if you practice the right way. The notion that we have to hit balls until our hands bleed like Hogan did is an antiquated concept and needs to be changed for more people to start improving and enjoy their golf.

Paul Kaster - 5SK Director of Instruction for Northern New Jersey

Teaching Professional

The Golf Cave

Royce Brook Academy of Golf

www.paulkastergolf.com

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Appreciating success and actually experiencing are two different ideas.  If I want a player to have confidence that will stand up under pressure and enjoy what they do, I don't want them to struggle for very long at all. This from a guy who specializes to some degree in coaching junior golfers.  You can get a lot done if you practice the right way. The notion that we have to hit balls until our hands bleed like Hogan did is an antiquated concept and needs to be changed for more people to start improving and enjoy their golf.


I suppose everyone is different. I wouldn't think of trying to teach this game to others - fortunately, there are skilled instructors such as yourself to do that.

For some of us to improve, it takes more time than perhaps the average pupil. I no longer hold very high expectations of my game but I do expect a small amount of improvement each year. Personally, I get a great deal of enjoyment from practicing, whether its from the feeling of a well struck ball or viewing a recording of my swing where it shows even a little bit of improvement on the piece I'm working on.

Sometimes practice sessions - as well as rounds of golf - can be terribly frustrating. When I get to that point, I take a break knowing that the next time out, I'll have a different frame of mind. Often the piece that was impossible 2 hours prior suddenly becomes the easiest thing in the world to perform. There are probably others who experience this. Makes no difference whether we're talking about golf or learning a new chord progression on the guitar.

To me, it's part of the process which as a whole is very rewarding - otherwise I wouldn't participate.

Jon

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I suppose everyone is different. I wouldn't think of trying to teach this game to others - fortunately, there are skilled instructors such as yourself to do that.

For some of us to improve, it takes more time than perhaps the average pupil. I no longer hold very high expectations of my game but I do expect a small amount of improvement each year. Personally, I get a great deal of enjoyment from practicing, whether its from the feeling of a well struck ball or viewing a recording of my swing where it shows even a little bit of improvement on the piece I'm working on.

Sometimes practice sessions - as well as rounds of golf - can be terribly frustrating. When I get to that point, I take a break knowing that the next time out, I'll have a different frame of mind. Often the piece that was impossible 2 hours prior suddenly becomes the easiest thing in the world to perform. There are probably others who experience this. Makes no difference whether we're talking about golf or learning a new chord progression on the guitar.

To me, it's part of the process which as a whole is very rewarding - otherwise I wouldn't participate.

Enjoying the process is extremely important but, respectfully, so is knowing how to practice properly. My experience is that the majority of golfers think golf swing = golf score, and focus way more on their mechanics than the ball flight or target when those things are really the objective in golf (especially when playing on the course). If you focus on your body too much, you loose natural balance, spatial awareness and timing necessary to hit solid shots and that's when the frustration starts.

The best thing you can do to make the process more rewarding and fruitful is see a good teacher in your area who can give you some effective drills, games and a practice plan to help you achieve your goals. If you find the right person, it will be money well spent. Best of luck!

Paul Kaster - 5SK Director of Instruction for Northern New Jersey

Teaching Professional

The Golf Cave

Royce Brook Academy of Golf

www.paulkastergolf.com

Follow me on Twitter

Like my Facebook for updates

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Enjoying the process is extremely important but, respectfully, so is knowing how to practice properly. My experience is that the majority of golfers think golf swing = golf score, and focus way more on their mechanics than the ball flight or target when those things are really the objective in golf (especially when playing on the course). If you focus on your body too much, you loose natural balance, spatial awareness and timing necessary to hit solid shots and that's when the frustration starts.

The best thing you can do to make the process more rewarding and fruitful is see a good teacher in your area who can give you some effective drills, games and a practice plan to help you achieve your goals. If you find the right person, it will be money well spent. Best of luck!


As always, I appreciate the advice. When a 5sk instructor moves into this area, I'll be the first to give him/her a call.

Jon

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We appreciate the loyalty :) Here's a good drill for everyone to start with this season: Practice by hitting batches of ten balls and attempt to keep as many of them on the right or left side of a target green/pin depending on your ball flight.  If you hit fades, try keeping the ball left of the flag, and the opposite for draws. Keep count and and do the same drill with different clubs. This is a very simple drill and you'll be able to track your percentages. You can also do it with your driver by creating different "fairways" on the range between targets. As long as your practice objectives are performance based and swing based, you'll make lots of progress. All the best.

Paul Kaster - 5SK Director of Instruction for Northern New Jersey

Teaching Professional

The Golf Cave

Royce Brook Academy of Golf

www.paulkastergolf.com

Follow me on Twitter

Like my Facebook for updates

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Haven't seen the movie yet but this is basically what I'm like when I teach. Except I'm obviously wearing a collared shirt.

Mike McLoughlin

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Haven't seen the movie yet but this is basically what I'm like when I teach. Except I'm obviously wearing a collared shirt.


That's funny stuff Mike. I should've mentioned that Whiplash was based on my wife's high school band director...apparently he had a very loyal following.

Paul Kaster - 5SK Director of Instruction for Northern New Jersey

Teaching Professional

The Golf Cave

Royce Brook Academy of Golf

www.paulkastergolf.com

Follow me on Twitter

Like my Facebook for updates

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I think that there is also a maturity related willingness to defer gratification that is key.

We see it here all the time.  We see some guys get on here and are just looking for the mythical quick fix.  And then you see the serious guys who will bust their butts perfecting one critical part of their swing, even though they may be (temporarily) screwing up their swing because they understand that in the long run their game will be better.

In most things you inevitably come to the point where you have to take one step back before you can take 2 steps forward.  Too many people cannot see the 2 steps forward and so refuse to take the step back.

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But then again, what the hell do I know?

Rich - in name only

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Note: This thread is 3378 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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