Golden Oldies, can we still learn from them?

So we all know who the best ball strikers were dont we?

Ben Hogan, without a doubt

Sam Snead, has to be in there

Byron Nelson, of course

Add to that the likes of Moe Norman, Tom Watson, Lee Travino and too many others to list.

So i was reading Golf Monthly and they ran an article on Cary "Doc" Middlecoff. I had never heard of him before but was amazed by his story. He was a trained dentist who had taught himself the game, 1st amateur to win the north and south open in 1945 (he was still in the army at the time), won 40 tour titles including 2 US opens and a Masters, but was also known for his slow play, Glacial as some called it!. One quote from the article was:

"When Doug Ford played Middlecoff in the 36-hole final of the 1955 PGA Championship, Doc lit a cigarette when he got to the green and didn’t putt until the entire cigarette was gone. “The gallery really got on him,” Ford said, “but you couldn’t rush Doc. I didn’t care.” The reason Ford didn’t care was because he sat in a chair while he waited. His son brought it along for the final against Middlecoff. Ford won"

This guy made Kevin Na look like Usain Bolt!!

There are very few clips of his swing still around (youtube has one), however what there is, is fabulous. The tempo is excellent and there is something we dont see often, a noticable pause at the top. It is said he did this due to his nervous disposition but regardless of the truth it worked for him and is something i plan on trying to see for myself (i rush waaaaay too much!)

After he retired he wrote books and became a commentator in the states.

There is a lot of instruction out at the moment that harks back to a bygone age. Maybe we should be looking to the past masters for inspiration rather than the monthly dose of tour pro tips in the golf magazines?

Al Geiberger had a lovely swing.  It became the model for the SyberVision golf videotape, which was one of the first attempts to try to attack the golf swing through sublimation.

This is what a lot of people do. They might use players of this age as examples, but good players share a lot of commonalities with the best players through the history of golf. Tips directly from tour pros should be approached with caution, since they often get it wrong. They might be doing the right thing, but get it wrong when explaining what they do.

The people behind 5 Swing Keys has studied good players from 100 years to identify commonalities between them. This means they focus on what the good players actually have in common, not that one player had a slightly more pronounced delay at the top of the backswing, a peculiar grip on the club, or an uncommon stance. Which means they teach us the few basic key components that almost everyone want in their swing, and let the other variables remain a bit more loose and individually adapted.

A problem today is that golfers are fed swing tips from every angle, and a lot of it is straight up bad advice (not limited to the Internet). As a small group percentage wise of members on a website like TST, the best we can do is use the information we learn here to point others in what we percieve as the best direction. Which might mean giving them a link to 5SK, LSW, this forum, threads on specific issues etc., and explain why it might be a bad idea to randomly follow tips from Golf Digest or random YouTube accounts.

I generally do not advice finding a single player that has a good swing and try to mimic certain parts. You may get lucky and find it's what you need, but you are more likely making things worse. If working on the swing by yourself, I'd at least use the information found in here, preferably posting a video of the swing and getting some feedback. Getting instruction is what I would recommend anyone. Online if none other good options are available. Having an educated person help you can make things a whole lot easier and quicker.

There is something about the older swings that just appeal to me. I suppose they have had to change with the times to match the power game we have today, hence swings like Bubba Watson and Tommy Gainey. These will never be seen as timeless no matter how effective they are.

The old swings still have a place i feel, especially for the weekend golfer not obsessed with power or hitting it 300 yards.

I agree with above, however i think if you see something that may help its always worth a try at the range

When I was a kid, just learning the game, I saw an article in Golf Digest about Mr. Geiberger's swing. Since I was early in my development, I used the fact that he is 6'2", and I am 6'3" to model my swing after his. Bob Toski said the 6-2 Geiberger "has the best looking swing for a tall man I've ever seen."

"Think of the clubhead," Geiberger advised in his book, "Tempo. It will keep your mind off mechanics and slow down the pace of your swing." Also, "Start down at the same pace you went up ... without forcing."

Best advice I ever got and still use to this day.

Here's another story about Cary Middlecoff told to me by Jim Pernice, a former caddie at Oakmont Country Club who caddied in 7 US Opens, and is a member of the Caddie Hall of Fame (http://www.wgaesf.org/site/c.dwJTKiO0JgI8G/b.8558121/k.4AD6/The_Caddie_Hall_of_Fame.htm). J.P. was caddying for Dr.. Middlecoff and related the following:

The tour began in 1929 and at various times the tournament players had attempted to operate independently from the club professionals. Apparently, Cary Middlecoff was in the middle of an attempt to do this as the tour players representative and was playing the third round of the 1953 US Open at Oakmont Country Club with Doug Ford. On this particular day Mr. Ford was pressing Dr. Middlecoff for information from the meetings and was giving him an earful on every hole. Middlecoff hit his approach shot into a greenside bunker on hole number 10, and apparently his breaking point had been reached. He said to Jim, "J.P., I'll take my seven iron." And with that, he hit the ball out of the bunker and onto the Pennsylvania Turnpike, and immediately strode off the course.

I have no reason to doubt my deceased friend Jim Pernice, but I tried to find a link, just to verify the story told to me many years ago, but could not. However, if you look up the scores for the 1953 Open you will find that Cary Middlecoff shot 76 in the first round, 73 in the second round and withdrew in the third. (Ben Hogan won the second of his three straight majors in 1953 at Oakmont by six strokes, the only player to finish under par.)

Really? Things have changed that much?

Bubba Watson lifts his left heel and brings his left knee inward rotating his hips back, then plants his left heel to start his downswing. Bobby Jones did this move. He gets more of a turn this way, and after his heel plant he has more torque. Watson also incorporates the knee snap with both knees that you see on the women's tour going up on his toes like Thompson and Wie.

Of course, since Bubba plays left-handed, he will be lifting his right heel up, then planting it.  His hips are sure open when the clubhead gets to the ball.

Also, lets not forget Bubba is a freak of nature!!

Thanks for the correction on the heel.

Absolutely!

Three of the best purchases I ever made were Lee Trevino's Priceless Golf Tips, Vol. 1 through 3, a collection of TV tips he did in the 1980's

While some of the full swing items are a little dated (not sure if they apply to modern drivers), the short game and getting out of trouble lessons are fantastic.

I routinely use pitching, chipping and putting tips from those videos that have greatly improved my performance from bad lies, and approaching and around the green.

I got mine for around $8 to $15 each on eBay. Get them and learn from a master. He's also funny as Hell.

Just been reading about another golden oldie, Moe Norman. I find him fascinating, not only due to his ball striking (i have moved to a single axis swing, not fully moe style, in tha last few sessions with decent results) buit that fact he is kind of the underdog.

A lot of people have said his swing never got popular on tour as it lacks distance, maybe, but i think the main reason is he was bullied into stopping playing the PGA so it never got the exposure.

What shocked me was his treatment at the 1956 Masters. His ball striking was excellent but he struggled with the greens. Story goes that as in '56 there was no cut he went to the range and was being watched by Sam Snead who advised him his problem was his long irons and that he should sweep them. Now, having some 2n hand experience with autism (my wife teaches a kid in her maths class who is 11 and written his 1st thesis!) telling them they are wrong and to do something differntly isnt the right way to go about it. Moe spent all night trying to sort a problem he didnt have. Result? his hands were so bad he had to withdraw.

Did the PGA regulars see him as a threat as well as a "missfit" and set out to sabotage him?

Now im not saying had he been a success on tour we'd all be swinging like him but maybe his swing could have been more "mainstream".

Golf needs more characters like Moe IMO

Has any player ever been successful on the PGA Tour with a Norman (Moe, not Greg) type swing?

I dont belive so, and i think the reason is that no-one (Moe) ever got the chance to pioneer it and get the full PGA tour wins.

I'd liken it to motorsport, in World rally Audi introduced the Quattro in 1980 and won a couple of low level rally's. All the other teams thought their RWD cars would run rings round it..Audi dominated the following year and everyone followed suit.

Same with Ferrai in F1 in 1990, no-one used semi auto gearboxes till they started winning...now everyone uses them.

Im not saying had Moe won PGA event everyone would be using it but it would have more exposure and more players may have used it.

Moe Norman type swings seem popular with the weekenders but needed the high level "air time" to catch on.

Just my opinion

This makes no sense to me.  No one was a better ball striker than Lee Trevino AND he had an amazing career yet NO ONE is adopting HIS swing.  It doesn't work that way.  The fact is that there doesn't seem to be any evidence that someone can use the Moe Norman swing and compete successfully at the highest level.

I do not see where anything prevented his swing from getting a chance.  Moe's psychological and emotional problems prevented HIM from ever fairly putting his swing up against the best, but the noteworthy thing is that no one ever picked up the mantle.  If his swing was really as phenomenal as those with rose colored glasses seem to remember wouldn't SOMEONE with talent have said "hey that is a great swing - more accurate than anyone - I could clean up with that kind of accuracy" and tried it?  Maybe some even did.  But without actual results, Moe and his swing remain the cult figure they have always been.

I believe that we flatter ourselves a bit much by assuming that today's best golfers are better than the best golfers of 30, 40, 50 , or 90 years ago.  Granted, there is a much larger talent pool today with many golfers receiving excellent coaching on the high school and college level.   Golf is no longer exclusively for the wealthy and many more of us get to enjoy the game.  But to take one example, Jack Nicklaus in his prime and compare him to Tiger or Rory, I believe you will find relatively equal levels of talent, but with today's golfers having a major advantage due to the clubs and balls used.  Jack Nicklaus was able to drive the ball 340+ yards using a persimmon driver and wound ball - I do not think many (or any) of today's pros can match that.

The older equipment also required precise hitting, even more so than today's tour level blades.  If you take a Nicklaus, Hogan, Bobby Jones, Lee Trevino, Gary Player, Gene Sarazen, or similar championship golfers of the past we can learn from all of them.  Their swings were not cookie cutter like but they made precise contact with plenty of power.  I belonged to a club that was built in 1929 where from the blues and the whites there are 6 par 4's well over 400 yards, and from the blues a par 3 of 248.  Now take your wooden shafted clubs and rubber meshed golf balls and give it a go!

I love it, but I really never expected at age 63 to carry the driver as far as I do.  My 460cc titanium driver and Supersoft golf balls have kept me in the game.  But I can remember when a 200 yard drive was a great shot using hand me down persimmons  at age 40.  Sure, Tiger may be the best golfer of all time, and Rory is coming on.  But the great golfers over the last 120 years all made almost perfect contact with the ball and can teach us plenty.