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educate me - blades versus cavity backs


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so i have been playing for 3 years, going on year 4 now... i am 36 years old... i am a big boy, 6'1, 240, very physically fit. i hit hard. I only watched online instruction until last year until i finally got fit for clubs by our club pro. i got fitted and set into JPX EZ's. i enjoy them. Since i live in Germany and have the chance, i get to play alot of Europe. I was playing in Mitersill Austria, with the club pro and he made a statement last year that has been haunting me. He said "if you want to improve your golf game, get rid of the (game) improvement irons and switch to muscle backs." is this a true statement? I will never be a pro golfer, or a single digit handicap, I just want to hang with my dad and brother (both are indeed single digit handicap) for at least a few holes.... if I were to get fitted again for MB's will it force me to learn faster.... thanks in advance

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so i have been playing for 3 years, going on year 4 now... i am 36 years old... i am a big boy, 6'1, 240, very physically fit. i hit hard. I only watched online instruction until last year until i finally got fit for clubs by our club pro. i got fitted and set into JPX EZ's. i enjoy them. Since i live in Germany and have the chance, i get to play alot of Europe. I was playing in Mitersill Austria, with the club pro and he made a statement last year that has been haunting me. He said "if you want to improve your golf game, get rid of the (game) improvement irons and switch to muscle backs." is this a true statement? I will never be a pro golfer, or a single digit handicap, I just want to hang with my dad and brother (both are indeed single digit handicap) for at least a few holes.... if I were to get fitted again for MB's will it force me to learn faster.... thanks in advance

You don't know if this can or can't happen. With practice, maybe you can hit the single digits?

As far as using game improvement clubs is concerned, I have had very little experience. I started using my blades when I was teetering on 17 HC to 22+ handicap.

It has not stopped me from improving. I can even say that at this point in time, they are the only thing that is holding together what little game I have.

:ping:  :tmade:  :callaway:   :gamegolf:  :titleist:

TM White Smoke Big Fontana; Pro-V1
TM Rac 60 TT WS, MD2 56
Ping i20 irons U-4, CFS300
Callaway XR16 9 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S
Callaway XR16 3W 15 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S, X2Hot Pro 20 degrees S

"I'm hitting the woods just great, but I'm having a terrible time getting out of them." ~Harry Toscano

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so i have been playing for 3 years, going on year 4 now... i am 36 years old... i am a big boy, 6'1, 240, very physically fit. i hit hard. I only watched online instruction until last year until i finally got fit for clubs by our club pro. i got fitted and set into JPX EZ's. i enjoy them. Since i live in Germany and have the chance, i get to play alot of Europe. I was playing in Mitersill Austria, with the club pro and he made a statement last year that has been haunting me. He said "if you want to improve your golf game, get rid of the (game) improvement irons and switch to muscle backs." is this a true statement? I will never be a pro golfer, or a single digit handicap, I just want to hang with my dad and brother (both are indeed single digit handicap) for at least a few holes.... if I were to get fitted again for MB's will it force me to learn faster.... thanks in advance

It's nonsense. They're probably some of the best clubs for your game right now. Muscleback irons have their virtues, but the added distance, ease of launch, and forgiveness of game improvement irons are something you can benefit from. If it helps, Internet golf celebrity Mark Crossfield played the JPX EZ last year in most of his course vlogs. He's a pro and so doesn't have a handicap, but he'd be right about scratch if he did. Play what suits you and don't get shamed into players irons if you don't have a good reason to make that switch. But if you want to explore it, try Gi and MB irons side by side on a launch monitor and see how your numbers, particularly dispersion, look.

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Dom's Sticks:

Callaway X-24 10.5° Driver, Callaway Big Bertha 15° wood, Callaway XR 19° hybrid, Callaway X-24 24° hybrid, Callaway X-24 5i-9i, PING Glide PW 47°/12°, Cleveland REG 588 52°/08°, Callaway Mack Daddy PM Grind 56°/13°, 60°/10°, Odyssey Versa Jailbird putter w/SuperStroke Slim 3.0 grip, Callaway Chev Stand Bag, Titleist Pro-V1x ball

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Quote:

Originally Posted by the-infidel

so i have been playing for 3 years, going on year 4 now... i am 36 years old... i am a big boy, 6'1, 240, very physically fit. i hit hard. I only watched online instruction until last year until i finally got fit for clubs by our club pro. i got fitted and set into JPX EZ's. i enjoy them. Since i live in Germany and have the chance, i get to play alot of Europe. I was playing in Mitersill Austria, with the club pro and he made a statement last year that has been haunting me. He said "if you want to improve your golf game, get rid of the (game) improvement irons and switch to muscle backs." is this a true statement? I will never be a pro golfer, or a single digit handicap, I just want to hang with my dad and brother (both are indeed single digit handicap) for at least a few holes.... if I were to get fitted again for MB's will it force me to learn faster.... thanks in advance

It's nonsense. They're probably some of the best clubs for your game right now. Muscleback irons have their virtues, but the added distance, ease of launch, and forgiveness of game improvement irons are something you can benefit from.

If it helps, Internet golf celebrity Mark Crossfield played the JPX EZ last year in most of his course vlogs. He's a pro and so doesn't have a handicap, but he'd be right about scratch if he did.

Play what suits you and don't get shamed into players irons if you don't have a good reason to make that switch. But if you want to explore it, try Gi and MB irons side by side on a launch monitor and see how your numbers, particularly dispersion, look.

I disagree that it's nonsense. It really depends if your goal is to immediately score lower or to learn to hit irons better. Sure you can learn to hit game improvement irons better too, but using blades kind of forces you to hit better in a more dramatic manner. Some people enjoy the journey more than immediate results, while many other people want to shoot lower scores as soon as possible.

I think it's just a matter of personal preference, so I disagree that it's "nonsense".

:ping:  :tmade:  :callaway:   :gamegolf:  :titleist:

TM White Smoke Big Fontana; Pro-V1
TM Rac 60 TT WS, MD2 56
Ping i20 irons U-4, CFS300
Callaway XR16 9 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S
Callaway XR16 3W 15 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S, X2Hot Pro 20 degrees S

"I'm hitting the woods just great, but I'm having a terrible time getting out of them." ~Harry Toscano

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I disagree that it's nonsense. It really depends if your goal is to immediately score lower or to learn to hit irons better. Sure you can learn to hit game improvement irons better too, but using blades kind of forces you to hit better in a more dramatic manner. Some people enjoy the journey more than immediate results, while many other people want to shoot lower scores as soon as possible. I think it's just a matter of personal preference, so I disagree that it's "nonsense".

But that's my point. You can get extremely good hitting game improvement irons. You could also get extremely good hitting MBs. But the implication by the pro that he should ditch his JPX EZ irons that he just got in order to improve is nuts. He can get plenty good hitting GI irons. There are tour pros that play with those kinds of irons, usually through a mixed set, but still. Switching to MB irons could just as easily hurt his progression because of things like over swinging to achieve launch and trying to compensate for mishits. I just disagree that playing with GI irons is a recipe for having mediocre iron striking.

Dom's Sticks:

Callaway X-24 10.5° Driver, Callaway Big Bertha 15° wood, Callaway XR 19° hybrid, Callaway X-24 24° hybrid, Callaway X-24 5i-9i, PING Glide PW 47°/12°, Cleveland REG 588 52°/08°, Callaway Mack Daddy PM Grind 56°/13°, 60°/10°, Odyssey Versa Jailbird putter w/SuperStroke Slim 3.0 grip, Callaway Chev Stand Bag, Titleist Pro-V1x ball

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

I disagree that it's nonsense. It really depends if your goal is to immediately score lower or to learn to hit irons better. Sure you can learn to hit game improvement irons better too, but using blades kind of forces you to hit better in a more dramatic manner. Some people enjoy the journey more than immediate results, while many other people want to shoot lower scores as soon as possible.

I think it's just a matter of personal preference, so I disagree that it's "nonsense".

But that's my point. You can get extremely good hitting game improvement irons. You could also get extremely good hitting MBs. But the implication by the pro that he should ditch his JPX EZ irons that he just got in order to improve is nuts. He can get plenty good hitting GI irons. There are tour pros that play with those kinds of irons, usually through a mixed set, but still. Switching to MB irons could just as easily hurt his progression because of things like over swinging to achieve launch and trying to compensate for mishits.

I just disagree that playing with GI irons is a recipe for having mediocre iron striking.

Ah, but you don't have to get that much better. Once you reach the minimum ability to hit the game improvement clubs well enough to hit greens, maybe your incentive to hit them even better diminishes?

:ping:  :tmade:  :callaway:   :gamegolf:  :titleist:

TM White Smoke Big Fontana; Pro-V1
TM Rac 60 TT WS, MD2 56
Ping i20 irons U-4, CFS300
Callaway XR16 9 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S
Callaway XR16 3W 15 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S, X2Hot Pro 20 degrees S

"I'm hitting the woods just great, but I'm having a terrible time getting out of them." ~Harry Toscano

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so i have been playing for 3 years, going on year 4 now... i am 36 years old... i am a big boy, 6'1, 240, very physically fit. i hit hard. I only watched online instruction until last year until i finally got fit for clubs by our club pro. i got fitted and set into JPX EZ's. i enjoy them. Since i live in Germany and have the chance, i get to play alot of Europe. I was playing in Mitersill Austria, with the club pro and he made a statement last year that has been haunting me. He said "if you want to improve your golf game, get rid of the (game) improvement irons and switch to muscle backs." is this a true statement? I will never be a pro golfer, or a single digit handicap, I just want to hang with my dad and brother (both are indeed single digit handicap) for at least a few holes.... if I were to get fitted again for MB's will it force me to learn faster.... thanks in advance

That's interesting.  I actually tried this.  My first set of irons when I started trying to get better were Mizuno MP-67s.  I still play them.  I wouldn't say it helped me get better more than it simply made the game more frustrating than it needed to be at first.  I thought it would make it clear when I hit bad shots and good shots.  It certainly did that, but the problem is, and anyone can attest to this:  bad shots are really clear regardless of the type of club used.  It took me about 6 years of work before I could hit the sweet spot consistently on them.  None of that improvement was related to the actual club.  It all came from lots of video analysis and practice practice practice.  I guess the good news is I can take a club like a taylormade RSI and carry it crazy distances, but I don't really know if it's worth it.  Just buy some more forgiving clubs, figure out how the swing should work, work on it and have fun.

[ Equipment ]
R11 9° (Lowered to 8.5°) UST Proforce VTS 7x tipped 1" | 906F2 15° and 18° | 585H 21° | Mizuno MP-67 +1 length TT DG X100 | Vokey 52° Oil Can, Cleveland CG10 2-dot 56° and 60° | TM Rossa Corza Ghost 35.5" | Srixon Z Star XV | Size 14 Footjoy Green Joys | Tour Striker Pro 5, 7, 56 | Swingwing

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Ah, but you don't have to get that much better. Once you reach the minimum ability to hit the game improvement clubs well enough to hit greens, maybe your incentive to hit them even better diminishes?

I'd argue that once one's hitting the greens with such remarkable consistency that one no longer has desire to get better, that person will be a pretty good ball striker with a players iron, too. And if you mean that once someone becomes good enough to hit a few greens in a round, they'll stop trying to get better, then I think that's unlikely. I just think that GI irons, which he already has, will make him better now and will allow him to still get better in the future.

Dom's Sticks:

Callaway X-24 10.5° Driver, Callaway Big Bertha 15° wood, Callaway XR 19° hybrid, Callaway X-24 24° hybrid, Callaway X-24 5i-9i, PING Glide PW 47°/12°, Cleveland REG 588 52°/08°, Callaway Mack Daddy PM Grind 56°/13°, 60°/10°, Odyssey Versa Jailbird putter w/SuperStroke Slim 3.0 grip, Callaway Chev Stand Bag, Titleist Pro-V1x ball

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Quote:

Originally Posted by the-infidel

so i have been playing for 3 years, going on year 4 now... i am 36 years old... i am a big boy, 6'1, 240, very physically fit. i hit hard. I only watched online instruction until last year until i finally got fit for clubs by our club pro. i got fitted and set into JPX EZ's. i enjoy them. Since i live in Germany and have the chance, i get to play alot of Europe. I was playing in Mitersill Austria, with the club pro and he made a statement last year that has been haunting me. He said "if you want to improve your golf game, get rid of the (game) improvement irons and switch to muscle backs." is this a true statement? I will never be a pro golfer, or a single digit handicap, I just want to hang with my dad and brother (both are indeed single digit handicap) for at least a few holes.... if I were to get fitted again for MB's will it force me to learn faster.... thanks in advance

That's interesting.  I actually tried this.  My first set of irons when I started trying to get better were Mizuno MP-67s.  I still play them.  I wouldn't say it helped me get better more than it simply made the game more frustrating than it needed to be at first.  I thought it would make it clear when I hit bad shots and good shots.  It certainly did that, but the problem is, and anyone can attest to this:  bad shots are really clear regardless of the type of club used.  It took me about 6 years of work before I could hit the sweet spot consistently on them.  None of that improvement was related to the actual club.  It all came from lots of video analysis and practice practice practice.  I guess the good news is I can take a club like a taylormade RSI and carry it crazy distances, but I don't really know if it's worth it.  Just buy some more forgiving clubs, figure out how the swing should work, work on it and have fun.

. . .and you had the incentive to do all this hard work because you chose to use harder to hit clubs.

:ping:  :tmade:  :callaway:   :gamegolf:  :titleist:

TM White Smoke Big Fontana; Pro-V1
TM Rac 60 TT WS, MD2 56
Ping i20 irons U-4, CFS300
Callaway XR16 9 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S
Callaway XR16 3W 15 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S, X2Hot Pro 20 degrees S

"I'm hitting the woods just great, but I'm having a terrible time getting out of them." ~Harry Toscano

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You will get better by improving your swing, not by just playing a different style of iron heads.  If you were fitted for the irons you have now and feel comfortable with them, look at improving your game and save your money for lessons or playing more golf.

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. . .and you had the incentive to do all this hard work because you chose to use harder to hit clubs.

I spend almost all of my practice time at the range working on my irons. I play forgiving Callaway X-24 clubs. If you gave me blades, I'd be working even harder? I don't think I'll plateau with my desire to work on my game because of the help I get from my irons.

Dom's Sticks:

Callaway X-24 10.5° Driver, Callaway Big Bertha 15° wood, Callaway XR 19° hybrid, Callaway X-24 24° hybrid, Callaway X-24 5i-9i, PING Glide PW 47°/12°, Cleveland REG 588 52°/08°, Callaway Mack Daddy PM Grind 56°/13°, 60°/10°, Odyssey Versa Jailbird putter w/SuperStroke Slim 3.0 grip, Callaway Chev Stand Bag, Titleist Pro-V1x ball

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Am I wrong as usual in thinking that the blade style before these modern blades was an even smaller head? It seems like those earliest blades would really make you hit the ball right or else! I have seen a lot of older blades that look like a butterknife blade sticking out there.

Tom R.

TM R1 on a USTv2, TM 3wHL on USTv2, TM Rescue 11 in 17,TM udi #3, Rocketbladez tour kbs reg, Mack Daddy 50.10,54.14,60.14, Cleveland putter

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Am I wrong as usual in thinking that the blade style before these modern blades was an even smaller head? It seems like those earliest blades would really make you hit the ball right or else! I have seen a lot of older blades that look like a butterknife blade sticking out there.

You are correct. Blades are smaller and thinner.

I could be completely off on this tangent of thinking, but it has been okay for me so far.

The counter argument against what I am doing is that it will be less frustrating to play more forgiving clubs and that I can trim off many strokes off my handicap etc., but honestly, I don't think I could get to let's say a 3 handicap or something by changing to SGI clubs or anything.

For sure it is a personal preference thing. This is why the club pro in the original post told the original poster that he should play blades to improve.

:ping:  :tmade:  :callaway:   :gamegolf:  :titleist:

TM White Smoke Big Fontana; Pro-V1
TM Rac 60 TT WS, MD2 56
Ping i20 irons U-4, CFS300
Callaway XR16 9 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S
Callaway XR16 3W 15 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S, X2Hot Pro 20 degrees S

"I'm hitting the woods just great, but I'm having a terrible time getting out of them." ~Harry Toscano

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You will get better by improving your swing, not by just playing a different style of iron heads.  If you were fitted for the irons you have now and feel comfortable with them, look at improving your game and save your money for lessons or playing more golf.

I would agree. To offer my take on blades vs GI irons..something to be said for each side, imho..IF your dead set on blades, be them MB's or CB's, they can be rewarding, and frustrating at the same time. Sure, the blades will cause you to work that much harder at making decent contact, on the other hand, they can be frustrating in that, when you mis hit them, they usually don't go very far, and they will go left, right, low and all over. Where as with GI irons if you mishit them, you lose way less distance, and the ball has a better chance of going where you aimed it.

Also, blade type irons have little, to no offset, and a thinner sole, which if your in the rough, they won't glide through the grass as well as a wider soled GI iron. Also, with the more offset on the GI clubs, you have a better chance of getting your hands ahead off the club head vs a smaller clubs, which also accounts for in some cases, a smaller sweet spot.

So playing the GI irons, makes the game a bit easier, and more fun, IF, you tend to get frustrated easy. Keep in mind, there are tour players that play GI irons.

I have the Titliest CB 695 irons, which as you might guess are cavity back smaller head clubs. My Son has the TM Rocketbladez, which are GI clubs. My comparison of the 2, went like this. I hit my 8i, until I flushed one, took 3 hits..lol, then I took his 8i, and flushed the first hit, so I hit 10 balls with each club, and all totaled I hit more better shots with his, than mine. I didn't include distance, because his irons have stronger lofts. I would think hard, before you venture into buying blades, at least until your pretty consistent hitting all of your shots.

And to the OP, my Son is 6'5" and about 260, his HC is 11.. :-D

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[QUOTE name="westcyderydin" url="/t/80596/educate-me#post_1112642"]   You will get better by improving your swing, not by just playing a different style of iron heads.  If you were fitted for the irons you have now and feel comfortable with them, look at improving your game and save your money for lessons or playing more golf. [/QUOTE] I would agree. To offer my take on blades vs GI irons..something to be said for each side, imho..IF your dead set on blades, be them MB's or CB's, they can be rewarding, and frustrating at the same time. Sure, the blades will cause you to work that much harder at making decent contact, on the other hand, they can be frustrating in that, when you mis hit them, they usually don't go very far, and they will go left, right, low and all over. Where as with GI irons if you mishit them, you lose way less distance, and the ball has a better chance of going where you aimed it. Also, blade type irons have little, to no offset, and a thinner sole, which if your in the rough, they won't glide through the grass as well as a wider soled GI iron. Also, with the more offset on the GI clubs, you have a better chance of getting your hands ahead off the club head vs a smaller clubs, which also accounts for in some cases, a smaller sweet spot. So playing the GI irons, makes the game a bit easier, and more fun, IF, you tend to get frustrated easy. Keep in mind, there are tour players that play GI irons. I have the Titliest CB 695 irons, which as you might guess are cavity back smaller head clubs. My Son has the TM Rocketbladez, which are GI clubs. My comparison of the 2, went like this. I hit my 8i, until I flushed one, took 3 hits..lol, then I took his 8i, and flushed the first hit, so I hit 10 balls with each club, and all totaled I hit more better shots with his, than mine. I didn't include distance, because his irons have stronger lofts. I would think hard, before you venture into buying blades, at least until your pretty consistent hitting all of your shots.    And to the OP, my Son is 6'5" and about 260, his HC is 11..:-D

I play the Rocketbladez tour because the lofts are more normal, and I agree with you about the consistency. The characteristic built into the muscle cavity design of the latest iteration of the TM design is very moderate, taking good design elements from blades, and cavity backs, but work against some of the more difficult design characteristics. I wont list them, because my point is that the slow advancement of player club design is currently able to put clubs in my hands that are quite advanced even compared to blades, both old and new design.

Tom R.

TM R1 on a USTv2, TM 3wHL on USTv2, TM Rescue 11 in 17,TM udi #3, Rocketbladez tour kbs reg, Mack Daddy 50.10,54.14,60.14, Cleveland putter

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you guys rock, thanks! i am going to try and hit a set during our demo day, i have never hit CB's or MB's so i am very curious how they will feel. taking all of the info presented here i think i am going to continue with my lessons (i have 5 set up for this year so far) and see if i start to play better.

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you guys rock, thanks! i am going to try and hit a set during our demo day, i have never hit CB's or MB's so i am very curious how they will feel. taking all of the info presented here i think i am going to continue with my lessons (i have 5 set up for this year so far) and see if i start to play better.

And just remember, despite how we've sort of argued it as a binary thing, it's really a spectrum between game improvement and player's irons. As @trickyputt said, there's Tour or Pro versions of most GI irons that take the proverbial training wheels off, but still give you help. And the new Nike Vapor Pro irons are a good example of a pure blade that still will help you get the ball up. But yeah, lessons first is the best bet. Good luck!

Dom's Sticks:

Callaway X-24 10.5° Driver, Callaway Big Bertha 15° wood, Callaway XR 19° hybrid, Callaway X-24 24° hybrid, Callaway X-24 5i-9i, PING Glide PW 47°/12°, Cleveland REG 588 52°/08°, Callaway Mack Daddy PM Grind 56°/13°, 60°/10°, Odyssey Versa Jailbird putter w/SuperStroke Slim 3.0 grip, Callaway Chev Stand Bag, Titleist Pro-V1x ball

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I would agree. To offer my take on blades vs GI irons..something to be said for each side, imho..IF your dead set on blades, be them MB's or CB's, they can be rewarding, and frustrating at the same time. Sure, the blades will cause you to work that much harder at making decent contact, on the other hand, they can be frustrating in that, when you mis hit them, they usually don't go very far, and they will go left, right, low and all over. Where as with GI irons if you mishit them, you lose way less distance, and the ball has a better chance of going where you aimed it.

Also, blade type irons have little, to no offset, and a thinner sole, which if your in the rough, they won't glide through the grass as well as a wider soled GI iron. Also, with the more offset on the GI clubs, you have a better chance of getting your hands ahead off the club head vs a smaller clubs, which also accounts for in some cases, a smaller sweet spot.

So playing the GI irons, makes the game a bit easier, and more fun, IF, you tend to get frustrated easy. Keep in mind, there are tour players that play GI irons.

I have the Titliest CB 695 irons, which as you might guess are cavity back smaller head clubs. My Son has the TM Rocketbladez, which are GI clubs. My comparison of the 2, went like this. I hit my 8i, until I flushed one, took 3 hits..lol, then I took his 8i, and flushed the first hit, so I hit 10 balls with each club, and all totaled I hit more better shots with his, than mine. I didn't include distance, because his irons have stronger lofts. I would think hard, before you venture into buying blades, at least until your pretty consistent hitting all of your shots.

And to the OP, my Son is 6'5" and about 260, his HC is 11..

My son not nearly as big as either your son or the OP, but he uses Cleveland CG Tour blades. He hit 2 iron shots yesterday on a 509 yard par 5 to within 20 yards of the pin He used an i20-4i, which he uses as a driving iron, and a 4i CG Tour.

It's all about having good ball striking. . .

BTW, CB are not blades.

:ping:  :tmade:  :callaway:   :gamegolf:  :titleist:

TM White Smoke Big Fontana; Pro-V1
TM Rac 60 TT WS, MD2 56
Ping i20 irons U-4, CFS300
Callaway XR16 9 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S
Callaway XR16 3W 15 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S, X2Hot Pro 20 degrees S

"I'm hitting the woods just great, but I'm having a terrible time getting out of them." ~Harry Toscano

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