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6th Key? Linking the Hands/Arms to the Pivot in Downswing


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I've been reading up on/watching videos that emphasize linking up the hands and arms with the lower body in the downswing.  I haven't been able to take this out to the course yet...darn weather...but as far as what I struggle with, this is huge.

There are many things that are commonly taught that throw this off really bad.  Holding the lag, wide going back/narrow coming down, leading the downswing with the front hip or lower body...I also think that key #1, Weight Forward, can cause this if it is interpreted or Incorporated incorrectly.  (Note: There is nothing wrong with Key #1, but, as with anything else, it can be done wrong, overdone, misinterpreted, etc.)

This lack of connection in the downswing causes some big time problems, is very prevalent, especially in hands forward/body pivot/swing left circles, and I only just ran across a few days ago.

Now as far as being a fundamental...Do all the best players in the world do it?   Yes and no.  Most of the players probably do this well but some also don't...such as world number 1 Rory McIlroy.  But, if some of the best players in the world are not always linked up, they play their best golf when they can find a way to compensate for it.  In that way I would compare it to lining up your putter correctly.  Is it a fundamental of putting?  Yes.  Do all the best players in the world do it?  No (Tiger), but they have to compensate to be able to be good at it.

So, is linking up the hands and arms with the pivot in the downswing worthy of "Key" status?  I think it is.

And in all seriousness if it isn't, then I think it really needs to be emphasized more...And maybe it is part of some of the other keys, but if it is I think it kind of gets lost in the mix.  Like, it might be something that you would teach a student in-person, but it might not be getting out there through other avenues.

I bring this up in a humble manner, wondering what everyone thinks of it.  I could be way off and if I am, then let me know.  I sincerely want to bring up this point up in case it is something that can help people.

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Now as far as being a fundamental...Do all the best players in the world do it?   Yes and no.

As far as it being a Key, as in the 5SK, you've answered your own question. All the best players in the world have all 5 Keys. For your 6th Key, I'm going to submit this as the argument against it:

In that way I would compare it to lining up your putter correctly.  Is it a fundamental of putting?  Yes.  Do all the best players in the world do it?  No (Tiger), but they have to compensate to be able to be good at it.

There are 3 Keys to putting. Lining up your putter correctly is not one of them. Tiger is proof of that.

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Bill

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There are 3 Keys to putting. Lining up your putter correctly is not one of them. Tiger is proof of that.

Wouldn't that be bead?

Yours in earnest, Jason.
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Wouldn't that be bead?

Bead is all about hitting your line, not your ability to aim on said line. I'm assuming the reason @westcyderydin picked Tiger as the exception is because Tiger aims his putter 4 degrees open or something and rotates it square.

Bill

“By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” - Confucius

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Wouldn't that be bead?


Yeah, its is...In LSW (p. 54) it talks about how a lot of golfers don't start their ball on the correct line because of how they aim the putter in their setup.

In that same way I think that those players that do play good golf without syncing up their hands and arms to their pivot would be better if they did or are major outliers who have found a way to be consistent enough at compensating.  Maybe you could also say that they are synced up to some extent...just on the lower end of the spectrum.

Some of the best players in the world move their head a lot, too.  Key #1 is definitely a key but not all of the best players in the world do it...or you could say that they do to some extent...but some players are much lower on that spectrum.

(edit: got my keys mixed up...hate when I do that haha...i guess i normally just forget where I place all of them ;-):censored::pound::whistle: .)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by westcyderydin

Now as far as being a fundamental...Do all the best players in the world do it?   Yes and no.

As far as it being a Key, as in the 5SK, you've answered your own question. All the best players in the world have all 5 Keys. For your 6th Key, I'm going to submit this as the argument against it:

Quote:

Originally Posted by westcyderydin

In that way I would compare it to lining up your putter correctly.  Is it a fundamental of putting?  Yes.  Do all the best players in the world do it?  No (Tiger), but they have to compensate to be able to be good at it.

There are 3 Keys to putting. Lining up your putter correctly is not one of them. Tiger is proof of that.


QFT

The whole point of the keys is that all the best ballstrikers possess them. Get them down and all the other stuff falls into place. I would encourage you to continue working on it if it helps but it may solve itself if you work on the other 5

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QFT

The whole point of the keys is that all the best ballstrikers possess them. Get them down and all the other stuff falls into place. I would encourage you to continue working on it if it helps but it may solve itself if you work on the other 5

You might not have seen my last post before you wrote this one...but look at Key #1.  Not all of the best players keep their heads steady....or like I said you might say they are lower on that spectrum.  Key #1 is important and definitely belongs as a key, but I would argue that syncing your hands/arms to your pivot is even more important when it comes to your overall results...and it might even affect more and different levels of amateurs.

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You might not have seen my last post before you wrote this one...but look at Key #1.  Not all of the best players keep their heads steady....or like I said you might say they are lower on that spectrum.  Key #1 is important and definitely belongs as a key, but I would argue that syncing your hands/arms to your pivot is even more important when it comes to your overall results...and it might even affect more and different levels of amateurs.

Yes they do.-Find one that does not. Key no. 1 is also about turning shoulders fully too I think. Please define "sync your hands/arms to your pivot." Seems to me it would affect Key no. 3, 4, even 5.

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Yes they do.-Find one that does not.

Key no. 1 is also about turning shoulders fully too I think.

Please define "sync your hands/arms to your pivot." Seems to me it would affect Key no. 3, 4, even 5.

Keegan Bradley...but like I said it might not be that he doesn't do Key #1 at all, but he is definitely lower on the Keeping A Steady Head spectrum.

Properly sequencing the downswing to allow a clean strike, a good impact position, and optimal/efficient power.

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Keegan Bradley...but like I said it might not be that he doesn't do Key #1 at all, but he is definitely lower on the Keeping A Steady Head spectrum.  Properly sequencing the downswing to allow a clean strike, a good impact position, and optimal/efficient power.

Key 1 has some leeway. Still the head can move. For PGA Tour players whose heads move a lot for their playing ability the amount is still way less than many higher handicap players. i think what you are describing as you key 6 is just a possible way to achieve keys 3 and 4. It sounds a lot like having good turn rates.

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Key 1 has some leeway. Still the head can move. For PGA Tour players whose heads move a lot for their playing ability the amount is still way less than many higher handicap players.

i think what you are describing as you key 6 is just a possible way to achieve keys 3 and 4. It sounds a lot like having good turn rates.

Yeah that's my point, there is still some leeway when you look at what the best players do.  There are a few exceptions to the rule(Keegan)  Same thing with what I'm talking about.  I am saying I think syncing up the hands/arms to the pivot in the downswing is something that the best players in to world do...with some exceptions...which would make it a fundamental.

There are a lot of things that can bring you out of sync.  Pulling the handle from the top, trying to hold the lag too much, bumping the hips forward to start the downswing....not that these things are always bad for everybody, but they are largely overdone and cause a lot of problems for a lot of people.  Those things that I mentioned (that I am using more as what you would see on a swing video not just feels) can make a swing very steep, lead to worse contact, etc.  A few things that really blew my mind were maintaining your secondary axis tilt in the back swing and down swing to make sure that you can shallow out the club and how to use your right shoulder correctly in the downswing...this lead into how to correctly get your weight forward.  Don't take me as someone trying to be an expert here...I feel more like someone who opened a door and found something I have never seen before and want to show other people...for all I know everybody else has been partying in that door and never told me...so gather around and laugh at me if that is the case haha.

And I have no doubt that other keys have something to do with this...but all of the 5 keys are interrelated, too.  Keeping a centered head leads into keeping your weight forward, keeping your weight forward helps leads to an inline impact, and all 3 have a lot to do with #4 and 5.

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Yeah that's my point, there is still some leeway when you look at what the best players do.  There are a few exceptions to the rule(Keegan)  Same thing with what I'm talking about.  I am saying I think syncing up the hands/arms to the pivot in the downswing is something that the best players in to world do...with some exceptions...which would make it a fundamental. And I have no doubt that other keys have something to do with this...but all of the 5 keys are interrelated, too.  Keeping a centered head leads into keeping your weight forward, keeping your weight forward helps leads to an inline impact, and all 3 have a lot to do with #4 and 5.

There is leeway, but leeway is not an exception. Key 1 states a steady head, not still. So the key that all the great players have has the built in acceptable range. Same with weight forward. It's not 100% forward, but at least 85-99%. Again leeway does not mean exception. If there are PGA Tour players who exhibit movements outside the acceptable range of your key 6 then it is not a key. It doesn't make sense for a key to have a very wide acceptable range.

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There is leeway, but leeway is not an exception. Key 1 states a steady head, not still. So the key that all the great players have has the built in acceptable range. Same with weight forward. It's not 100% forward, but at least 85-99%. Again leeway does not mean exception.

If there are PGA Tour players who exhibit movements outside the acceptable range of your key 6 then it is not a key. It doesn't make sense for a key to have a very wide acceptable range.

We agree with each other on Key 1 stating a steady head, not a still head...but look at Keegan.  Yes, Steady head allows for some movement but he is far from being a 5 out of 5 on Key #1.  In the same way, Jim Furyk is an example of not linking his arms with his pivot...neither is Rory.  I just think that this is more of a fundamental than say alignment or grip...there is a huge variation in the way that people do those things.

And lets not get totally stuck on whether it is a Key or not....that isn't the whole point.  I think it is something that needs to be touched on more at least.  The first three keys are laid out very well and the 2nd two bring the ball flight into it....I just think that somewhere in there there should be more emphasis on what you can do in your swing to stay synced up and not get the club stuck behind you, come over the top, get too steep by trying to hold the lag or pull the club from the top.

I'm a 5SK guy, almost everything I've worked on for the last 3 or 4 years has been from here...I am on the same side as the rest of you guys on everything.  I just want to bring this issue to everyone's attention and see what they think of it...and yes maybe as it fits to the system.

Just from my own experience, I've used parts of S&T; and all I could find of the 5SK and LSW to work on my game, LSW has been huge.  Syncing up your hands and arms with the lower body in the downswing is just something I have not heard in this circle.  I'm sure this advice has been given on here in some ways before and it is something that is probably fixed in in-person and one-on-one internet lessons (Evolvr), but as far as the 5SK and on this site it might just be something that is a little overlooked or maybe lost behind the rest of the information.

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@billchao . Re post #4 and Tiger 'rotating ' the putter head.  I looked at this video of Tiger putting on the practice green and could no evidence of such rotation.

So, could you offer more explanation or justification that Tiger does not offer the putter face square to the ball?  Perhaps you mean he, and many others. moves the putter head on an arc during the backswing, which of course increases on longer putts.  But 'rotation' as if he is placing some 'english' or side spin on the ball does not seem accurate.

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Yeah that's my point, there is still some leeway when you look at what the best players do.  There are a few exceptions to the rule(Keegan)  Same thing with what I'm talking about.  I am saying I think syncing up the hands/arms to the pivot in the downswing is something that the best players in to world do...with some exceptions...which would make it a fundamental.

And I have no doubt that other keys have something to do with this...but all of the 5 keys are interrelated, too.  Keeping a centered head leads into keeping your weight forward, keeping your weight forward helps leads to an inline impact, and all 3 have a lot to do with #4 and 5.

I looked at your Bradley example and I think you are not seeing his swing correctly. Does he shift his head towards his back leg, yes. Most of this shift happens before he even takes the club back. When he actually starts his swing (clubhead starts to move back), his head stays steady.

For me to consider something a key exceptions are not leeway. If the best player's swing mechanics fall outside the criteria of the key then it is not a key.

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We agree with each other on Key 1 stating a steady head, not a still head...but look at Keegan.  Yes, Steady head allows for some movement but he is far from being a 5 out of 5 on Key #1.  In the same way, Jim Furyk is an example of not linking his arms with his pivot...neither is Rory.  I just think that this is more of a fundamental than say alignment or grip...there is a huge variation in the way that people do those things. And lets not get totally stuck on whether it is a Key or not....that isn't the whole point.  I think it is something that needs to be touched on more at least.  The first three keys are laid out very well and the 2nd two bring the ball flight into it....I just think that somewhere in there there should be more emphasis on what you can do in your swing to stay synced up and not get the club stuck behind you, come over the top, get too steep by trying to hold the lag or pull the club from the top. I'm a 5SK guy, almost everything I've worked on for the last 3 or 4 years has been from here...I am on the same side as the rest of you guys on everything.  I just want to bring this issue to everyone's attention and see what they think of it...and yes maybe as it fits to the system.  Just from my own experience, I've used parts of S&T; and all I could find of the 5SK and LSW to work on my game, LSW has been huge.  Syncing up your hands and arms with the lower body in the downswing is just something I have not heard in this circle.  I'm sure this advice has been given on here in some ways before and it is something that is probably fixed in in-person and one-on-one internet lessons (Evolvr), but as far as the 5SK and on this site it might just be something that is a little overlooked or maybe lost behind the rest of the information.

If it is a Key, there can be no exceptions. There are those who can play well with the trail elbow "trapped" behind them. [quote name="joekelly" url="/t/80967/6th-key-linking-the-hands-arms-to-the-pivot-in-downswing#post_1119462"]@billchao. Re post #4 and Tiger 'rotating ' the putter head.  I looked at this video of Tiger putting on the practice green and could no evidence of such rotation.  [URL=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kYNjoUqohc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kYNjoUqohc[/URL] So, could you offer more explanation or justification that Tiger does not offer the putter face square to the ball?  Perhaps you mean he, and many others. moves the putter head on an arc during the backswing, which of course increases on longer putts.  But 'rotation' as if he is placing some 'english' or side spin on the ball does not seem accurate.  [/quote]Tiger aims 4 degrees right and "releases" his putter head so it squares up to his line (or at least he tries to). [URL]http://thesandtrap.com/t/46277/aim-bias-and-putting-geometry[/URL]

Bill

“By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” - Confucius

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I'm sorry, I went overboard on arguing the point that I think this should be one of the keys.  I got a little excited and went way to far and long-winded with it.

I just think this is something that I think needs more attention...and maybe more emphasis in the 5SK system.  And as far as fitting into the 5SK it does fit in with Keys 2, 3, and 4.  In that way I am sure it relates to 1 and 5 as well in some way or another.

I think a lot of golfers let their lower body out-race their hands in the downswing.  Or get into positions that get their arms stuck at the top or get too steep into impact.  I am sure this kind of thing gets corrected in in-person and online lessons, but it is something that might fall through the cracks for the people who glean through the 5SK information and kind of figure things on their own.  Those are the people who might buy the DVDs or get a lesson in the future.  Or maybe just have a better opinion of the system which might lead to them passing it on to others.

I might be way off here, but I want to at least start the conversation.

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There's certainly no need to apologize for bringing up what seems to be an important part of the swing, @westcyderydin . I'm sure there are others besides me who may have made strides with keys 1 -3 and are trying to figure out how to develop or groove the swing path as well as the proper angle of attack. Anything you have to share would be appreciated.

Is what you're talking about have anything to do with "maintaining the triangle" throughout contact? Keeping the arms connected to body? Or am I really off-base?

Jon

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Note: This thread is 3291 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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