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RANT: I'm sick and tired of the USGA manipulating course par for their championships

onthehunt526

By onthehunt526,
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onthehunt526 Super Member

onthehunt526

The USGA has officially gone too far in my opinion, yes the U.S. Open is for the best in the world. I'm sick and tired of them deciding that they must find a way to make every course selected for an Open an unnatural par-70... If you haven't heard the USGA will be playing Chambers Bay as a Par-70... A 7,800 yard, par 70, They will for the first time in the 120 year history of the Championship, alternate par on specific holes in a stroke play championship... The first hole will play as either a 498 yard par 4 or a 596 yard par 5 The 18th Hole will play as a 604 yard par 5 on days the first is a par 4 and a 525 yard par 4 on days the first is a par 5... the 4th which was a par-5 during the amateur will be a 490+ yard par 4... the scary one the 14th Hole is a 546 yard par 4! That's longer than both second nine par 5s at Augusta... My opinion is, they will find a way to make Erin Hills a par-70 in two years, even with all 4 par 5s being over 600 yards... A 600-yard par 5 should NEVER be allowed to be converted to a par 4... if the USGA demands that Erin Hills builds a par 4 tee for any of the par 5s they should refuse... Chambers Bay should of refused to let the USGA manipulate them (meaning Pierce County)... I'm tired of watching Opens where over par wins... and it's not really over par, because of converted par-5s to 4s... next thing you know they'll select a course that has a drivable par-four and make it a par-three... What do you guys think?

What's in Shane's Bag?     

Ball: 2022 :callaway: Chrome Soft Triple Track Driver: :callaway:Paradym Triple Diamond 8° MCA Kai’li 70s FW: :callaway:Paradym Triple Diamond  H: :callaway: Apex Pro 21 20°I (3-PW) :callaway: Apex 21 UST Recoil 95 (3), Recoil 110 (4-PW). Wedges: :callaway: Jaws Raw 50°, 54°, 60° UST Recoil 110 Putter: :odyssey: Tri-Hot 5K Triple Wide 35”

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iacas
iacas

Gave this a bit more looking into… So, your claims of a 270-yard three isn't really super accurate, as the third played at 266 for one round… during which the front nine played it

turtleback
turtleback

Why is that a good thing?  You want everyone t have an even chance?  Why should a longer player lose the advantage of the skill and practice he expended to become so long?  Isn't that a valuable golf

David in FL
David in FL

Par is irrelevant. The competition is all about who can finish 72 holes.....the same 72 holes as everyone else, in the fewest number of strokes. That's all.

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billchao Incredible Member

billchao

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Why does it matter if the winning score is over or under par?

Bill

“By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” - Confucius

My Swing Thread

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Shorty Super Member

Shorty

What do you guys think?

I think you're better off seeing these competitions as players playing against each other, not the golf course.

Just pretend the par 4 is a par 5 if you like. They're all playing the same course.

In the race of life, always back self-interest. At least you know it's trying.

 

 

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David in FL Incredible Member

David in FL

Par is irrelevant. The competition is all about who can finish 72 holes.....the same 72 holes as everyone else, in the fewest number of strokes. That's all.
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In David's bag....

Driver: Titleist 910 D-3;  9.5* Diamana Kai'li
3-Wood: Titleist 910F;  15* Diamana Kai'li
Hybrids: Titleist 910H 19* and 21* Diamana Kai'li
Irons: Titleist 695cb 5-Pw
Wedges: Scratch 51-11 TNC grind, Vokey SM-5's;  56-14 F grind and 60-11 K grind
Putter: Scotty Cameron Kombi S
Ball: ProV1

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jamo Incredible Member

jamo

Par is irrelevant. The competition is all about who can finish 72 holes.....the same 72 holes as everyone else, in the fewest number of strokes. That's all.

This. If you see a 500-yard par 4 as intently more difficult than a 500-yard par 5, that's a flaw in your own thinking.

In my bag:

Driver: Titleist TSi3 | 15º 3-Wood: Ping G410 | 17º 2-Hybrid: Ping G410 | 19º 3-Iron: TaylorMade GAPR Lo |4-PW Irons: Nike VR Pro Combo | 54º SW, 60º LW: Titleist Vokey SM8 | Putter: Odyssey Toulon Las Vegas H7

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jsgolfer Super Member

jsgolfer

Lowest Score Wins, doesn't matter than Par, slope or rating.

-Jerry

Driver: Titleist 913 D3 (9.5 degree) – Aldila RIP 60-2.9-Stiff; Callaway Mini-Driver Kura Kage 60g shaft - 12 degree Hybrids: Callway X2 Hot Pro - 16 degree & 23 degree – Pro-Shaft; Callway X2 Hot – 5H & 6H Irons: Titleist 714 AP2 7 thru AW with S300 Dynamic Gold Wedges: Titleist Vokey GW (54 degree), Callaway MackDaddy PM Grind SW (58 degree) Putter: Ping Cadence TR Ketsch Heavy Balls: Titleist Pro V1x & Snell MyTourBall

"Golf is the closest game to the game we call life. You get bad breaks from good shots; you get good breaks from bad shots but you have to play the ball where it lies."- Bobby Jones

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SavvySwede Great Member

SavvySwede

The par for the course doesn't matter, it is still going to be the same course. I do agree that turning a 600 yard par 5 into a 500 yard par 4 is excessive tampering with the layout. The USGA seems intent on keeping an absolute minimum on approaches into the green with a wedge by eliminating extra par 5s. The USGA wants everything to be tough but they need to realize the tournament will be more exciting to watch with more birdie opportunities in the closing stretch of holes.

:callaway: Big Bertha Alpha 815 DBD  :bridgestone: TD-03 Putter   
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iacas Hall of Fame Member

iacas

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I don't care.

Plus, Chambers Bay is not your typical course. Expect roll-out, bump-and-run type long shots into greens, etc. If there's one course that is almost built to have longer par fours when hosting a U.S. Open, it may just be Chambers Bay.

Erik J. Barzeski — ⛳ I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • Author, Lowest Score Wins
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ChrisP Great Member

ChrisP

As long as it's a challenge for the players, that's all I care about. That's what gives the US Open its identity and makes it unique. The USGA is really good at making the winning score somewhere around par (unless you have a Martin kaymer or Rory mcilroy week) and they'll do the same this year.
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Shindig Incredible Member

Shindig

Echoing what's already been said, par doesn't matter. If you took any given hole on my home course and called it a par-10, it would still just be a hole where I can't seem to make birdie. As long as every participant plays the same first 36 holes, and then everyone making the cut plays the same last 36, and any playoff is held on the same holes, it doesn't matter to me. Payne Stewart had this argument at a U.S. Open many years ago. He told an official during a practice round that such-and-such hole can't be played as a par-4: the green was meant as a par-5 and can't hold shots from long irons and woods. The official asked if he'd prefer it be played as a par-5, with a prohibition on going for it in two (referring to the green's inability to hold a shot).

-- Michael | My swing! 

"You think you're Jim Furyk. That's why your phone is never charged." - message from my mother

Driver:  Titleist 915D2.  4-wood:  Titleist 917F2.  Titleist TS2 19 degree hybrid.  Another hybrid in here too.  Irons 5-U, Ping G400.  Wedges negotiable (currently 54 degree Cleveland, 58 degree Titleist) Edel putter. 

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Golfingdad Incredible Member

Golfingdad

I just don't care what the par is. It really only exists for our purposes of being able to compare players mid round. Otherwise we could just look at the gross numbers. And when all is said and done, does anybody really give a darn what the final score relative to par was? Would tigers 2008 open victory have been more impressive if the putt to force the playoff was to get to 5 under par instead of 1? I'm thinking a vehement "no" is the answer. Oh, and speaking of 2008, I thought the usgas idea to play the 440 yard par 4 14th from a 285 yard tee on Saturday and Sunday made everything more exciting and interesting. So the idea that they'll mix it up on a few holes this year excited me as well!
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dkolo Great Member

dkolo

I just don't care what the par is. It really only exists for our purposes of being able to compare players mid round. Otherwise we could just look at the gross numbers. And when all is said and done, does anybody really give a darn what the final score relative to par was? Would tigers 2008 open victory have been more impressive if the putt to force the playoff was to get to 5 under par instead of 1? I'm thinking a vehement "no" is the answer.

If the U.S. Open traditionally tries to keep scores around par, I sort of expect them to make it so that their pars match up with what the players will be doing. Makes sense to me.

Dom's Sticks:

Callaway X-24 10.5° Driver, Callaway Big Bertha 15° wood, Callaway XR 19° hybrid, Callaway X-24 24° hybrid, Callaway X-24 5i-9i, PING Glide PW 47°/12°, Cleveland REG 588 52°/08°, Callaway Mack Daddy PM Grind 56°/13°, 60°/10°, Odyssey Versa Jailbird putter w/SuperStroke Slim 3.0 grip, Callaway Chev Stand Bag, Titleist Pro-V1x ball

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Fourputt Incredible Member

Fourputt

The USGA has officially gone too far in my opinion, yes the U.S. Open is for the best in the world.

I'm sick and tired of them deciding that they must find a way to make every course selected for an Open an unnatural par-70...

If you haven't heard the USGA will be playing Chambers Bay as a Par-70... A 7,800 yard, par 70, They will for the first time in the 120 year history of the Championship, alternate par on specific holes in a stroke play championship...

The first hole will play as either a 498 yard par 4 or a 596 yard par 5

The 18th Hole will play as a 604 yard par 5 on days the first is a par 4 and a 525 yard par 4 on days the first is a par 5... the 4th which was a par-5 during the amateur will be a 490+ yard par 4... the scary one the 14th Hole is a 546 yard par 4! That's longer than both second nine par 5s at Augusta...

My opinion is, they will find a way to make Erin Hills a par-70 in two years, even with all 4 par 5s being over 600 yards... A 600-yard par 5 should NEVERbe allowed to be converted to a par 4... if the USGA demands that Erin Hills builds a par 4 tee for any of the par 5s they should refuse... Chambers Bay should of refused to let the USGA manipulate them (meaning Pierce County)...

I'm tired of watching Opens where over par wins... and it's not really over par, because of converted par-5s to 4s... next thing you know they'll select a course that has a drivable par-four and make it a par-three...

What do you guys think?

Do you know what the definition of the word "par" is?  A course is not playing to "par" if half of the field or more is under the card specified par.  Par for the best in the world is not the same as par for you and me (especially me :roll: ).  The USGA sets up it's Open Championship course so that par is a goal, not a given.

I'm really looking forward to this year's Open.  Chambers Bay should be a spectacular venue for the Championship.

Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

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ChrisP Great Member

ChrisP

Bottom line is the USGA knows what they're doing. Remember two years ago at Merion when everyone thought it was too short and too easy? They got the last laugh on that one. Mike Davis is brilliant when it comes to setting a course up for a specific score.
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onthehunt526 Super Member

onthehunt526

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Bottom line is the USGA knows what they're doing. Remember two years ago at Merion when everyone thought it was too short and too easy? They got the last laugh on that one. Mike Davis is brilliant when it comes to setting a course up for a specific score.

I understand that he is brilliant, but what's gonna win the Open 290 in a playoff? A lot of you have said that par doesn't matter... If that's the case why does Mikey give the holes a par value... if par doesn't matter... If Mikey even attempts to convert the par-fives at Erin Hills, I'm crying foul... 605, 635, 614, and 660 sound not convertible to me... par doesn't matter... Lowest Score Wins....

What's in Shane's Bag?     

Ball: 2022 :callaway: Chrome Soft Triple Track Driver: :callaway:Paradym Triple Diamond 8° MCA Kai’li 70s FW: :callaway:Paradym Triple Diamond  H: :callaway: Apex Pro 21 20°I (3-PW) :callaway: Apex 21 UST Recoil 95 (3), Recoil 110 (4-PW). Wedges: :callaway: Jaws Raw 50°, 54°, 60° UST Recoil 110 Putter: :odyssey: Tri-Hot 5K Triple Wide 35”

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dkolo Great Member

dkolo

I understand that he is brilliant, but what's gonna win the Open 290 in a playoff? A lot of you have said that par doesn't matter... If that's the case why does Mikey give the holes a par value... if par doesn't matter... If Mikey even attempts to convert the par-fives at Erin Hills, I'm crying foul... 605, 635, 614, and 660 sound not convertible to me... par doesn't matter... Lowest Score Wins....

The final score compared to par matters to the U.S. Open the way the number on the iron they're hitting a given distance matters to amateur golfers. It doesn't really make a difference, but the optics are appreciated.

Dom's Sticks:

Callaway X-24 10.5° Driver, Callaway Big Bertha 15° wood, Callaway XR 19° hybrid, Callaway X-24 24° hybrid, Callaway X-24 5i-9i, PING Glide PW 47°/12°, Cleveland REG 588 52°/08°, Callaway Mack Daddy PM Grind 56°/13°, 60°/10°, Odyssey Versa Jailbird putter w/SuperStroke Slim 3.0 grip, Callaway Chev Stand Bag, Titleist Pro-V1x ball

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onthehunt526 Super Member

onthehunt526

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I wonder if Erik has played Erin Hills or anyone here played it? Can they convert any of 4 600+ par-fives into par-fours?

What's in Shane's Bag?     

Ball: 2022 :callaway: Chrome Soft Triple Track Driver: :callaway:Paradym Triple Diamond 8° MCA Kai’li 70s FW: :callaway:Paradym Triple Diamond  H: :callaway: Apex Pro 21 20°I (3-PW) :callaway: Apex 21 UST Recoil 95 (3), Recoil 110 (4-PW). Wedges: :callaway: Jaws Raw 50°, 54°, 60° UST Recoil 110 Putter: :odyssey: Tri-Hot 5K Triple Wide 35”

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Lihu Incredible Member

Lihu

Can they convert any of 4 600+ par-fives into par-fours?

100 yard up and down? :-D

:ping:  :tmade:  :callaway:   :gamegolf:  :titleist:

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"I'm hitting the woods just great, but I'm having a terrible time getting out of them." ~Harry Toscano

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