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Rules incident in Des Moines


Gregsfolly
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I was on the course with 2 other buddies.  We’ve played together for many years and typically like to have some wagers on the course.

We were playing a par 3 over water.  There was a sign at the tee box which read "Local Rule:  Golfers hitting into the water must proceed to the drop area."  Ron hit his shot.  It appeared to be headed towards the bank on the far side of the water (near the hole) - -  there was no visible splash, nor the sound of hitting water, but instead an audible thud or thump, as of a ball hitting turf.  No one claimed to see the exact location of the ball, where it had thudded, or where it came to rest.  After all players hit from the tee box, we moved onward to play the hole.

Ron, upon arriving at the drop area, said, "Hold up a minute, I need to hit a provisional."  This shot was hit, nicely, landing on the green near the hole.  Ron then made a cursory look for their ball and determined he would play the provisional.

Another player, prior to Ron playing his provisional ball, then located Ron’s  original ball, in the rough-fringe area bordering the water (where the mowers couldn't really mow.)  There were no red stakes outlining the water hazard or edge.  The lie was not good.  The first drive had not plugged (which would have been inconsistent with the heard thud anyway), but had nestled down into to some long but dried almost hay-like type of growth.  The most probable occurrence was that the ball had landed on good turf a short bit past the water, and rolled back a bit, either due to back-spin or the incline of the turf rising from the water toward the putting green on higher ground.  The ball's lie made it extremely difficult to play, and Ron probably would have to move it a club length and take a stroke to play it.

At this point the third player said, "Whoa, wait a minute.  You've got to play your first ball."

So, the question is, which ball is Ron supposed to play ? The group could not agree.  Ron played his provisional and lied 3 on the green but tempers flared.

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Rule 27-2c prescribes that if the original ball is neither lost nor out of bounds, the player must abandon the provisional ball and continue playing his original ball.

Quote:

Rule 27-2

Original Ball Found and Declared Unplayable, Player wishes to Continue with Provisional Ball

Q. A player played his tee shot into deep woods. He correctly played a provisional ball to the fairway in case the ball would be lost. Before reaching the provisional ball the player finds the original ball laying against the base of a tree in between two large roots. The player declares the ball unplayable. His best option is to proceed under Rule 28a and return to the teeing ground. To save time may the player still continue play with the provisional ball?

A. No. Once the original ball is found the provisional ball must be abandoned (Rule 27-2c) and the player must continue play with the original ball or declare it unplayable (Rule 28). A provisional ball is not an option for a ball that may be unplayable. It is only an option if the original ball may be out of bounds or lost outside of a water hazard.

Joe Paradiso

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If Ron had gone forward some distance (I assume the drop was) and then went back to the tee, the ball he played as a provisional was in fact his ball in play.

If however, he had only taken a few steps forward, then as his original was found and he hadn't yet played his provisional again from nearer the hole, then the original was still the ball in play.

But we need more information about his walk towards the drop zone.

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As I read the scenario, the ball he played as a "provisional" was played from the drop area.  In that case it was not a provisional ball, but the ball in play under the assumption that his original ball was in the water hazard, and the original ball was abandoned.  If he had been playing a provisional ball correctly he would have played it from the tee before going forward.

Since the original ball was found before 5 minutes had elapsed, and since it was not in the hazard, it should have been the ball in play and a correctly played provisional ball abandoned.  However, he also played from a wrong place, since the place for playing a provisional ball was back at the tee.

To further complicate the issue, the rules do not allow a provisional ball to be played when the original ball is thought to be lost in a hazard.  The fact that he dropped in the drop area for the hazard leads me toward thinking that this was his intention.  Thus since he was not playing the second ball under a rule which allowed a provisional ball (and he was not playing a provisional ball from a correct place), that ball was the ball in play under stroke and distance but it was played from a wrong place, incurring 2 more penalty strokes.  Depending on how far forward the drop area was, it was likely a serious breach, which would require him to return and correct his mistake.  Since he did not do that, in a competition he would be disqualified.

So at best, one stroke for the stroke and distance penalty, and 2 more for playing from a wrong place means that at a minimum the second ball was lying 5 on the green, and that is only if if the DQ is ignored.

We begin to see why playing without a working knowledge of the rules can make something so simple become a total mess.

(I am qualifying this ruling by stating that I could easily be wrong in my interpretation of the second ball, but this is how I would rule it if I was the official on the course and had no higher authority to call in for assistance.)

Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

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Thanks for the excellent feedback.  I wanted to give you a few more pertinent facts.

Ron walked from the tee towards the hole which was the location of the drop zone - probably about 55-70 yards from the tee.

He played his provisional from the drop zone which i now understand was incorrect.

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Thanks for the excellent feedback.  I wanted to give you a few more pertinent facts.

Ron walked from the tee towards the hole which was the location of the drop zone - probably about 55-70 yards from the tee.

He played his provisional from the drop zone which i now understand was incorrect.

In that case, as was said above, that second ball was the ball in play. It then gets complicated.

If he continued with that ball (and disregarded the original) not only would he have incurred a 2 stroke wrong place penalty, it would almost certainly to have been a serious breach and subject to DQ.

If, on finding the original, he continued with that one, he would have incorrectly substituted a ball and played from a wrong place with a 2 stroke penalty. However, he would also be in line for a serious breach DQ.

Incidentally, Fourputt said  " the rules do not allow a provisional ball to be played when the original ball is thought to be lost in a hazard."

That is not correct. A provisional may be played if the ball may be lost outside a hazard. (ie if it is not known if it is in or out.)

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Incidentally, Fourputt said  "[COLOR=181818] the rules do not allow a provisional ball to be played when the original ball is thought to be lost in a hazard."[/COLOR] [COLOR=181818]That is not correct. A provisional may be played if the ball may be lost outside a hazard. (ie if it is not known if it is in or out.)[/COLOR]

Would you clarify that what Fourputt said above is incorrect? Is he not saying, "I think my ball is in a hazard. I am going to play a provisional." This is not permitted so is what he said not correct? If a player says that his ball may be in the hazard or maybe outside the hazard, he may play a provisional, as you have stated.

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you dont play a provisional in another area thats all.

the status of the ball played as a provisional from the dropping zone is in fact not a provisional even if the player said so.

the thing is that if you have an almost certainty (or certainty) that the ball is in the hazard than you can play accordingly to the hazard (in this case the drop area).

nevertheless if you find your ball afterward it is not in play anymore. (I remember having bounced out  of a hazard, was certain it was in the hazard, dropped and played GIR +1, then I saw the ball perfect middle of the fairway but could not play it). :cry:

I do have a question for rules man thought :

since he didn't even look for his ball can he take almost certainty on the hazard option ?

It seams to me he played from the wrong place in the drop area and has 2 shots penalty not ?

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Would you clarify that what Fourputt said above is incorrect? Is he not saying, "I think my ball is in a hazard. I am going to play a provisional." This is not permitted so is what he said not correct? If a player says that his ball may be in the hazard or maybe outside the hazard, he may play a provisional, as you have stated.

I understood what @Fourputt meant, but he slightly misspoke (admittedly, very unusual for him) when he said " the rules do not allow a provisional ball to be played when the original ball is thought to be lost in a hazard". They do not allow for a provisional when your only concern is that the ball might be lost in the hazard. But, if due to the nature and design of the hazard and surrounding area, you suspect that the ball could also be lost somewhere outside of the hazard, you may play a provisional as usual. It's also worth noting that there is a USGA approved local rule that allows for a provisional to be played, even if your only concern is that your ball may be lost in a hazard. A useful local rule that's enacted too seldom in my opinion! Appendex 1, Part A applies.... 1. Water Hazards; Ball Played Provisionally Under Rule 26-1 If a water hazard (including a lateral water hazard) is of such size and shape and/or located in such a position that: (i) it would be impracticable to determine whether the ball is in the hazard or to do so would unduly delay play, and (ii) if the original ball is not found, it is known or virtually certain that it is in the water hazard, the Committee may introduce a Local Rule permitting the play of a ball provisionally under Rule 26-1. The ball is played provisionally under any of the applicable options under Rule 26-1 or any applicable Local Rule. In such a case, if a ball is played provisionally and the original ball is in a water hazard, the player may play the original ball as it lies or continue with the ball played provisionally, but he may not proceed under Rule 26-1 with regard to the original ball. In these circumstances, the following Local Rule is recommended: "If there is doubt whether a ball is in or is lost in the water hazard (specify location), the player may play another ball provisionally under any of the applicable options in Rule 26-1. If the original ball is found outside the water hazard, the player must continue play with it. If the original ball is found in the water hazard, the player may either play the original ball as it lies or continue with the ball played provisionally under Rule 26-1. If the original ball is not found or identified within the five-minute search period, the player must continue with the ball played provisionally. PENALTY FOR BREACH OF LOCAL RULE: Match play - Loss of hole; Stroke play - Two strokes."

In David's bag....

Driver: Titleist 910 D-3;  9.5* Diamana Kai'li
3-Wood: Titleist 910F;  15* Diamana Kai'li
Hybrids: Titleist 910H 19* and 21* Diamana Kai'li
Irons: Titleist 695cb 5-Pw

Wedges: Scratch 51-11 TNC grind, Vokey SM-5's;  56-14 F grind and 60-11 K grind
Putter: Scotty Cameron Kombi S
Ball: ProV1

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Would you clarify that what Fourputt said above is incorrect? Is he not saying, "I think my ball is in a hazard. I am going to play a provisional." This is not permitted so is what he said not correct? If a player says that his ball may be in the hazard or maybe outside the hazard, he may play a provisional, as you have stated.

If you think the ball may be lost in a water hazard or if it is not in the WH it will be found (because the area around is closely mown say), then you may not play a provisional.

If you think the ball may be lost in a WH or may be lost outside it (because the area around is long grass say), then you may play a provisional.

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I do have a question for rules man thought :

1) since he didn't even look for his ball can he take almost certainty on the hazard option ?

2) It seams to me he played from the wrong place in the drop area and has 2 shots penalty not ?

I am not clear on your first question. However,

1) He can only take WH relief if he is certain or virtually certain the ball is in the WH.

2) Yes, a 2 stroke penalty (at that point) with a possible Serious Breach DQ in the offing. After that it gets messy.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by 6Aces

Would you clarify that what Fourputt said above is incorrect? Is he not saying, "I think my ball is in a hazard. I am going to play a provisional." This is not permitted so is what he said not correct? If a player says that his ball may be in the hazard or maybe outside the hazard, he may play a provisional, as you have stated.

I understood what @Fourputt meant, but he slightly misspoke (admittedly, very unusual for him) when he said " the rules do not allow a provisional ball to be played when the original ball is thought to be lost in a hazard". They do not allow for a provisional when your only concern is that the ball might be lost in the hazard. But, if due to the nature and design of the hazard and surrounding area, you suspect that the ball could also be lost somewhere outside of the hazard, you may play a provisional as usual.

Everyone keeps saying this, but I did not misspeak.  If the original ball is thought to be lost in a water hazard, you are not allowed to play a provisional ball.  It seems quite straightforward to me.  If the ball may be lost in a water hazard or may be lost outside of a hazard, then you are allowed to play a provisional ball.

If I play a stroke and I have reason to believe that if the ball is lost it is in a water hazard, then I won't play a provisional ball.  If I think that there is some doubt whether it is in the hazard or not, and there is some chance that it could be lost outside of the hazard, then I will play a provisional ball, even if the odds are greatest that it is in the hazard.

Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

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Everyone keeps saying this, but I did not misspeak.  If the original ball is thought to be lost in a water hazard, you are not allowed to play a provisional ball.  It seems quite straightforward to me.  If the ball may be lost in a water hazard or may be lost outside of a hazard, then you are allowed to play a provisional ball.   If I play a stroke and I have reason to believe that if the ball is lost it is in a water hazard, then I won't play a provisional ball.  If I think that there is some doubt whether it is in the hazard or not, [U] and [/U] there is some chance that it could be lost outside of the hazard, then I will play a provisional ball, even if the odds are greatest that it is in the hazard.

My apologies.

In David's bag....

Driver: Titleist 910 D-3;  9.5* Diamana Kai'li
3-Wood: Titleist 910F;  15* Diamana Kai'li
Hybrids: Titleist 910H 19* and 21* Diamana Kai'li
Irons: Titleist 695cb 5-Pw

Wedges: Scratch 51-11 TNC grind, Vokey SM-5's;  56-14 F grind and 60-11 K grind
Putter: Scotty Cameron Kombi S
Ball: ProV1

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If the original ball is thought to be lost in a water hazard, you are not allowed to play a provisional ball.

The rule requires knowledge or virtual certainty (not just thought) that a ball struck toward a water hazard , but not found, is in the hazard .

What is the difference between the words in red?

Q. A player's original ball may have come to rest in a water hazard , the player is precluded from playing a provisional ball?

A. No. Even though the original ball may be in a water hazard, the player is entitled to play a provisional ball if the original ball might also be lost outside the water hazard or out of bounds.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

If the original ball is thought to be lost in a water hazard, you are not allowed to play a provisional ball.

The rule requires knowledge or virtual certainty (not just thought) that a ball struck toward a water hazard, but not found, is in the hazard.

What is the difference between the words in red?

Q. A player's original ball may have come to rest in a water hazard, the player is precluded from playing a provisional ball?

A.No. Even though the original ball may be in a water hazard, the player is entitled to play a provisional ball if the original ball might also be lost outside the water hazard or out of bounds.

A ball is hit toward a water hazard.  It can only be in play or lost in the hazard.  The expectation is that it is in the hazard, and if so, it is lost.  Therefore it is thought to be lost in the hazard, yet it might not be in the hazard, and if not, it is not lost (because I've played this course many times and I know what lies ahead).  This is what I said and I defend my wording.  You can be as pedantic as you like but it doesn't change the meaning of my statement.

Maybe if I say it like this: "If the ball is thought to be lost in a water hazard, and the only way it can be lost is if it is in the water hazard, then you are not allowed to play a provisional ball."  Better?  I was just saying the same thing only with a lot fewer words.

Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

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Sometimes one needs to apply Occam's Razor. - the ball was rolling at a reasonably high speed toward the hazard. There  is nothing else in the area. It was not observed to make a splash, but it is nowhere to be found. Therefore it is by process of elimination in the water hazard.

Julia

:callaway:  :cobra:    :seemore:  :bushnell:  :clicgear:  :adidas:  :footjoy:

Spoiler

Driver: Callaway Big Bertha w/ Fubuki Z50 R 44.5"
FW: Cobra BiO CELL 14.5 degree; 
Hybrids: Cobra BiO CELL 22.5 degree Project X R-flex
Irons: Cobra BiO CELL 5 - GW Project X R-Flex
Wedges: Cobra BiO CELL SW, Fly-Z LW, 64* Callaway PM Grind.
Putter: 48" Odyssey Dart

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A ball is hit toward a water hazard.  It can only be in play or lost in the hazard.  The expectation is that it is in the hazard, and if so, it is lost.  Therefore it is thought to be lost in the hazard, yet it might not be in the hazard, and if not, it is not lost (because I've played this course many times and I know what lies ahead).  This is what I said and I defend my wording.  You can be as pedantic as you like but it doesn't change the meaning of my statement.

Maybe if I say it like this: "If the ball is thought to be lost in a water hazard, and the only way it can be lost is if it is in the water hazard, then you are not allowed to play a provisional ball."  Better?  I was just saying the same thing only with a lot fewer words.


Fourputt, I don't want to inflame things - quite the opposite - but it is simply that the word "thought"  carries an implication of the possibility of the situation being other than what it is thought to be.  It's just what the word does and it is therefore not quite precise enough in the rules context of "virtual certainty" and because it could mislead  it's better in a rules forum for it to be pointed out.

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Note: This thread is 3218 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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