What causes over-draws?

I have a good understanding of the ball flight laws (face angle mostly dictates starting line, path mostly dictates curvature), but I'm curious what causes an over draw.  I've been getting this miss a couple times per round, almost exclusively with my 3W and 4 and 5 irons.

I line up square (best thing I've done for my swing, besides seeing @mvmac and Dana, has been working on a square to SLIGHTLY closed alignment as opposed to 20 yards closed), aim the club face a few degrees open, and generally have a 3-5 degree in to out path according to trackman recently.  With the clubs mentioned above, the ball sometimes starts on my intended line (right of the target), draws back and then keeps drawing.  Balls comes in very hot and generally ends up left rough.

Just throwing something out there...when this overdraw happens, is it possible you hit it off the toe, instead of the center club face? Maybe gear effect?

Good question, but no.  This are solid, center face contact.  Definitely happens on toe hits though.

Over-draw to me is a hook.

I think if you change your grip to more neutral, it can be a way to reduce an over-draw?

For me the only way to get that much curve is to have an extreme face to path angle difference. If you have a 3-5 in to out, and you are hooking it then the face is closed to that.

To get that much curve it has to be something large, like 5 degrees out path with a -5 degree face angle. Which tells me the ball should be starting left of the target line.

Since you said it starts right, then that probably tells me your swing path is to far from the inside, and isn't 3-5 degrees. Trackman wouldn't be that far off.

Another option is that your perception of where it starts is wrong.

Yeah you might be right re perception.  Thinking about a shot in particular the other day; thinking back on the hole, it probably started very slightly right, if not on the target line.

I used to have a much bigger problem with this when I set up closed.  So perhaps on some of these I'm going back to my old alignment without realizing it. Also, it tends to happen most often when there's trouble right...

Have not seen your swing so can't say but will comment on my similar issue.

Push draw is my big miss. For me a steep armsy take away and hence a resulting super shallow in to out swing with face closed to path causes the push over draw.

I resolved this by doing the opposite (in my swing thread) with help from @iacas . Also across the line paths are worse for folks whose arms are too far from the chest at set up. The arms want to drop more when you reverse to start the downswing to go excessively inside out. I think better to feel a little 'bunched up' than to give too much room for the arms to swing if this is the miss tendency.

Why is this your big miss?

It is slowly getting eliminated so I want to say it WAS.

Anyway, because it curves way too much and on tight courses usually ends up running more ending up in trees or OB. It only happens once every 4-5 shots on driver and hybrids so it's not like I can plan and play for it. Other wise I play mostly straight or a gentle draw.

For me, an old guy, it happens when the legs get tired, or on soft-wet turf, not getting to my left side quick enough.

Arm speed is slightly quicker than lower body drive.

As Mike mentioned,  "Golfers hit a pull or a pull draw and they think it's a hook."

Also, sometimes it's just the tendency to hit it harder..........

Club Rat

For me its not an alignment issues, it too fast of tempo and./or  snapping my hands rather than using the natural kick point of the shaft , which for me is mid shaft.

Lol.  Best response winner.  And yeah, I'm exactly the same.  Especially when the ball is below my feet with a SW or GW and play for the fade...guaranteed hook.

Oh, those are DEFINITELY pulls (sarcasm didn't go through the inter webs).  Usually happens when I'm hitting to a right pin and really don't want to short side myself.