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To catch a sandbagger....


pops4wood
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Hello everybody... brand new here... I play in a local club and of course we think we have a problem with people inflating their handicap indices with rounds outside the club.

The person in question over the last 5 years has played 208 rounds outside the club with an average differential of 17.7.  He has 35 rounds within the club with an average differential of 12.5.

The break down year by year is:

2011 (22 outside rounds, avg diff 18.1 vs. 6 club rounds, avg diff 12.0)

2012 (34 outside rounds, avg diff 21.2 vs. 5 club rounds, avg. diff 14.0)

2013 (61 outside rounds, avg diff 17.3 vs 7 club rounds, avg diff 13.7)
2014 (52 outside rounds, avg diff 17.6 vs 11 club rounds avg diff 11.1)

2015 (39 outside rounds, avg diff 15.4 vs 5 club rounds avg diff 12.8)

I guess my question is this:

Is there any other logical or plausible explanation other than sandbagging?

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Hello everybody... brand new here... I play in a local club and of course we think we have a problem with people inflating their handicap indices with rounds outside the club.

The person in question over the last 5 years has played 208 rounds outside the club with an average differential of 17.7.  He has 35 rounds within the club with an average differential of 12.5.

The break down year by year is:

2011 (22 outside rounds, avg diff 18.1 vs. 6 club rounds, avg diff 12.0)

2012 (34 outside rounds, avg diff 21.2 vs. 5 club rounds, avg. diff 14.0)

2013 (61 outside rounds, avg diff 17.3 vs 7 club rounds, avg diff 13.7)

2014 (52 outside rounds, avg diff 17.6 vs 11 club rounds avg diff 11.1)

2015 (39 outside rounds, avg diff 15.4 vs 5 club rounds avg diff 12.8)

I guess my question is this:

Is there any other logical or plausible explanation other than sandbagging?

Wow, I can't think of any plausible explanation other than sandbagging.

RiCK

(Play it again, Sam)

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We rotate 3 courses as our home course. All have pretty decent length. Since the statistical measure "differential" incorporates each course's slope rating, shouldn't that take care of course difficulty as a possible explanation?
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We rotate 3 courses as our home course. All have pretty decent length. Since the statistical measure "differential" incorporates each course's slope rating, shouldn't that take care of course difficulty as a possible explanation?

I don't believe it does. Some courses fit a players game more than others and the difference in the course rating and slope don't always even out the differential. For example, there are courses here with a rating of 69 and courses with ratings of 72. I could easily shoot 80 on the 69 rating but may struggle to break 90 on the 72 rating. Length plays a large part in my scoring as well. I have a few courses around here that if I played day in and day out, my index would most likely be closer to 9. And then there are courses where I would struggle to carry a 15 index at. Just wondering if this could be the case with this player.

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I don't believe it does. Some courses fit a players game more than others and the difference in the course rating and slope don't always even out the differential.

For example, there are courses here with a rating of 69 and courses with ratings of 72. I could easily shoot 80 on the 69 rating but may struggle to break 90 on the 72 rating. Length plays a large part in my scoring as well.

I have a few courses around here that if I played day in and day out, my index would most likely be closer to 9. And then there are courses where I would struggle to carry a 15 index at.

Just wondering if this could be the case with this player.

Interesting.  He plays a ton of different courses.  A lot of them I don't know... some of the ones I do know are very tough courses.  The courses we play... 2 tough, 1 average.  I don't know the guy that well and rarely have been grouped with him.

The round that made me even want to investigate was that he shot 7 strokes under his course index during a match... net 65 on a tough par 72 course.  That got me wondering about what the odds are of shooting that low.  Pope of Slope put it at 552 to 1.

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For outside courses he played, he's not playing an unfamiliar course every time.  He's likely cycling through them and should be familiar with them to play close to his handicap.  7 stroke difference in 2012 is unexplainable with that many rounds played.   I say he is sandbagging.   If I were in your club's committee, I'd confront him in a reasonable manner (not accuse him outright, but point out the discrepancy and ask for his take on it).

RiCK

(Play it again, Sam)

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For outside courses he played, he's not playing an unfamiliar course every time.  He's likely cycling through them and should be familiar with them to play close to his handicap.  7 stroke difference in 2012 is unexplainable with that many rounds played.   I say he is sandbagging.   If I were in your club's committee, I'd confront him in a reasonable manner (not accuse him outright, but point out the discrepancy and ask for his take on it).

Yeah the 2012 gap jumped out at me, but the first thing that raised an eyebrow was that not once in 5 years was the club avg differential the higher number... The closest is this year with a gap of 2.6.  I don't want to be subtle about either... he's winning money at least 1/2 of the rounds he plays with us... to me that sandbagging turns into stealing.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by rkim291968

For outside courses he played, he's not playing an unfamiliar course every time.  He's likely cycling through them and should be familiar with them to play close to his handicap.  7 stroke difference in 2012 is unexplainable with that many rounds played.   I say he is sandbagging.   If I were in your club's committee, I'd confront him in a reasonable manner (not accuse him outright, but point out the discrepancy and ask for his take on it).

Yeah the 2012 gap jumped out at me, but the first thing that raised an eyebrow was that not once in 5 years was the club avg differential the higher number... The closest is this year with a gap of 2.6.  I don't want to be subtle about either... he's winning money at least 1/2 of the rounds he plays with us... to me that sandbagging turns into stealing.

There in bold you found his motivation.  You also have circumstantial evidence, the round HI you collected, his winning percentage in club play.   Some'd argue the data you collected is more than circumstantial.

RiCK

(Play it again, Sam)

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Does he enter tournaments? Does he score with the lower differential in his tournaments? If so the USGA can reduce his handicap and slap a "R" after it.

Julia

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That's what our greens chairman wants to do... He wants some support though. So far in the only other one who wants to pursue it. I just broke down the numbers this morning. Let's see if others see the light. Thanks for all the responses.
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That's what our greens chairman wants to do... He wants some support though. So far in the only other one who wants to pursue it. I just broke down the numbers this morning. Let's see if others see the light.

Thanks for all the responses.

Good luck.   I'd love to hear how it ends.

RiCK

(Play it again, Sam)

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Interesting.  He plays a ton of different courses.  A lot of them I don't know... some of the ones I do know are very tough courses.  The courses we play... 2 tough, 1 average.  I don't know the guy that well and rarely have been grouped with him.

The round that made me even want to investigate was that he shot 7 strokes under his course index during a match... net 65 on a tough par 72 course.  That got me wondering about what the odds are of shooting that low.  Pope of Slope put it at 552 to 1.

The original question you asked: "Is t here any other logical or plausible explanation other than sandbagging?"

You just gave two in bold above.

When I was working on a course many years ago, I'd play almost daily on my home turf, I would shoot frequently low single digits.  I knew the course, I knew every shot, I knew what I could carry and where to back off, how and where to approach each pin location etc.

I'd go and play rounds on other courses and would easily be 10 shots off my standard at home.  I really wasn't a low single digit player.

I wouldn't for a second consider playing to a 7+ shot higher handicap at home though, so yeah, he's sandbagging!!

Dean

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If I'm going to be honest with myself, I posted this with a bias that he had to be sandbagging. And I was just looking for people to back me up... I hear what PingDB is saying about being better at your home course, especially if you get to play it a few times a week. But this guy does not really play the club's home courses that much if at all (outside of club play). I have that course too.... And I rarely play it anymore... But if I play really well anywhere else I'm in the low 90s or sometimes high 80s.... If I play my home course, I'm pissed if I don't get it to 85 or less. All this talking has me jonesing to play....
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There was a fairly lengthy discussion elsewhere about "style of play" employed in casual rounds versus tournaments.  A player stated that when he was playing a non-tournament round he always went for the low percentage but spectacular shot.  He would rarely warm up and often just arrived 5 minutes prior to teeing off.  When a tournament was at hand, he would play a practice round at the course.  On tournament day he would arrive early and thoroughly warm up.  Once on the course, he would play conservatively and go with high percentage shots.  As a result of his "style" of play, his tournament results were considerably better than his non-tournament rounds.  This would be one explanation.

Another approach is where a player plays courses from the tips when his game is better suited to the "White" tees.  I am personally convinced that slope/rating works best when a player plays a tee appropriate for their game.  A 10.0 index player who hits his drives 200-210 yards and plays Bethpage Black from the tips is likely to never come close to beating their handicap.  If one plays courses that are beyond one's skill level, the resulting index will be inflated (again, just my opinion - no facts to back it up).

Brian Kuehn

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Quote:

Originally Posted by pops4wood

Interesting.  He plays a ton of different courses.  A lot of them I don't know... some of the ones I do know are very tough courses.  The courses we play... 2 tough, 1 average.  I don't know the guy that well and rarely have been grouped with him.

The round that made me even want to investigate was that he shot 7 strokes under his course index during a match... net 65 on a tough par 72 course.  That got me wondering about what the odds are of shooting that low.  Pope of Slope put it at 552 to 1.

The original question you asked: "Is there any other logical or plausible explanation other than sandbagging?"

You just gave two in bold above.

When I was working on a course many years ago, I'd play almost daily on my home turf, I would shoot frequently low single digits.  I knew the course, I knew every shot, I knew what I could carry and where to back off, how and where to approach each pin location etc.

I'd go and play rounds on other courses and would easily be 10 shots off my standard at home.  I really wasn't a low single digit player.

I wouldn't for a second consider playing to a 7+ shot higher handicap at home though, so yeah, he's sandbagging!!


Your argument may be correct if he plays home course most of the times, and plays outside his club occasionally,   But the guy in question plays outside of his home course a lot more than his club course.   Playing that many rounds, likely, he's not playing a new course every time and has a set of outside courses he frequent.   In fact he plays his club course rather infrequently.

7 stroke difference given the above playing pattern is not plausible.   Over time, CR is supposed to return similar HI no matter where you play.

RiCK

(Play it again, Sam)

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By purposely not playing for your best score on an outside round, aren't you inflating your handicap? If someone is being open and honest about not trying to card their best score, then they shouldn't be posting that score. To me, that's no different than purposely missing putts after a match is over to inflate your score. Now, I understand it may be more fun for some to play like a riverboat gambler... But if the result is you blow up your round, i don't think you should be posting it.
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Note: This thread is 3184 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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