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Preferred lies!? Tee on fairway?


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Hi, I went to the Australian PGA last year and noticed that the players were picking their ball up off the fairway, putting a tee down and then repositioning their ball? I thought this may be because of bad course condition ( although it looked much better to the stuff I play off). I again saw it on the television today at the John Deere Classic where Lee got penalised as they changed the rules overnight and he wasn't aware that the rule had changed. (Can someone explain to me what this rule is and why the best players in the world get to use it, I though golf was a game of "play it as it lies"?
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So they played preferred lies. The procedure is the other way around, you first mark the ball and then either place or replace the ball (first one is more common). The tee is used to mark, not to tee up.

Here is the specimen rule from Rules Book:

Quote:

c. “Preferred Lies” and “Winter Rules”
Ground under repair is provided for in Rule 25 and occasional local abnormal conditions that might interfere with fair play and are not widespread should be defined as ground under repair.
However, adverse conditions, such as heavy snows, spring thaws, prolonged rains or extreme heat can make fairways unsatisfactory and sometimes prevent use of heavy mowing equipment. When such conditions are so general throughout a course that the Committee believes “preferred lies” or “winter rules” would promote fair play or help protect the course, the following Local Rule is recommended:

“A ball lying on a closely-mown area through the green (or specify a more restricted area, e.g. at the 6th hole) may be lifted, without penalty, and cleaned. Before lifting the ball, the player must mark its position. Having lifted the ball, he must place it on a spot within (specify area, e.g. six inches, one club-length, etc.) of and not nearer the hole than where it originally lay, that is not in a hazard and not on a putting green.
A player may place his ball only once, and it is in play when it has been placed (Rule 20-4). If the ball fails to come to rest on the spot on which it is placed, Rule 20-3d applies. If the ball when placed comes to rest on the spot on which it is placed and it subsequently moves, there is no penalty and the ball must be played as it lies, unless the provisions of any other Rule apply.

If the player fails to mark the position of the ball before lifting it or moves the ball in any other manner, such as rolling it with a club, he incurs a penalty of one stroke.

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The John Deere tourney played lift, clean and place on Saturday. The course was so wet, you were allowed to mark your ball, pick it up, clean it off, and replace it before hitting.
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One more reason I like the US Open -- they'll never play Lift Cheat and Place at a USGA event. I'd love it if one of these events had a player who refused to participate -- lifting etc isn't mandatory, I think -- and still won.

-- Michael | My swing! 

"You think you're Jim Furyk. That's why your phone is never charged." - message from my mother

Driver:  Titleist 915D2.  4-wood:  Titleist 917F2.  Titleist TS2 19 degree hybrid.  Another hybrid in here too.  Irons 5-U, Ping G400.  Wedges negotiable (currently 54 degree Cleveland, 58 degree Titleist) Edel putter. 

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Thanks for the response guys, The US Open this year was the best tournament I have seen to date, along with Winged Foot a few years back. Can I ask why they are given this relief? As when I was watching Royal Pines PGA cHampionship, the course looked in pretty good condition. I can understand winter rules, but this was in the middle of summer on the Gold Coast of Queensland where it's quite dry that time of year? Isnt this taking the grass roots out of golf and he term play it as it lies? One thing which was great to see was all the Pros whinging and complaining at this years US open that the course wasn't up to scratch bla bla bla. Better viewing for hackers like myself they can't always play off the red carpet,
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Can I ask why they are given this relief? As when I was watching Royal Pines PGA cHampionship, the course looked in pretty good condition.

Many tournaments do this when the local conditions for a round -- recent rain or whatever -- causes conditions that they feel warrant it. [i]I suspect[/i] the reasoning is that it keeps the pros coming back to their event. The U.S. Open doesn't have to worry about top players not showing up because they aren't playing preferred lies. The Masters doesn't have to worry because there aren't bad lies in the fairways at Augusta. But the Humana Challenge might worry that pros could skip in the future if they felt entitled to the local rule and weren't granted it.

-- Michael | My swing! 

"You think you're Jim Furyk. That's why your phone is never charged." - message from my mother

Driver:  Titleist 915D2.  4-wood:  Titleist 917F2.  Titleist TS2 19 degree hybrid.  Another hybrid in here too.  Irons 5-U, Ping G400.  Wedges negotiable (currently 54 degree Cleveland, 58 degree Titleist) Edel putter. 

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While it may be overused, I believe at times they do it so that they can play on a course that would be unplayable otherwise.  As in the course should be closed, but they need to get the event done.  It also helps to keep the competition "fair" as conditions change throughout a rainy day.

I do believe that they really do try to not play preferred lies, but sometimes it just makes sense.

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We have had life, clean, cheat during tourneys due to the condition of our fairways for months.

I guess it is still better than the old guys *root rule*

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Chris, although my friends call me Mr.L

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Yes I understand, though like I kept saying the course/competition I was watching was in good condition with no rain. Is the rule overused? The sneaky part about it is they don't show it on the television, because it looks like nonsense. Play it as it lies, every golfer there is playing off the same surface. I understand your comments regarding they won't get players back and the course is too wet, ect. BUT, I think it's overused and the courses I see the rule being implemented are in acceptable condition to play golf off.
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One more reason I like the US Open -- they'll never play Lift Cheat and Place at a USGA event.

I'd love it if one of these events had a player who refused to participate -- lifting etc isn't mandatory, I think -- and still won.

If you are so against a rule that can be used when conditions are poor and are clearly too highly principled to make use of such a rule yourself, do you also always insist on playing as the ball lies in GUR,  or when lying on a tarmac path, or when in a rabbit hole, or in a huge puddle following a rainstorm etc?

And are you sure that the USGA never uses preferred lies at any of its events?

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Grass Roots golf = Fun exciting golf, not fairy golf. How was golf played from its first origins? Obviously I will conform to the way it is on the day otherwise will cost myself too many shots against my compeditors, grass roots golf calla for a much funner day. Especially in a sport which is decaying due to it not being fun. The one thing wrong with golf is its too serious, and hence the reason why I loved watching the Tour guys struggle at Chambers Bay. So to answer your question: GUR, Rabbit Hole and puddle I'll take relief. Tarmac path I'd have to have a look at the shot in front of me.
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Grass Roots golf = Fun exciting golf, not fairy golf.

How was golf played from its first origins? Obviously I will conform to the way it is on the day otherwise will cost myself too many shots against my compeditors, grass roots golf calla for a much funner day. Especially in a sport which is decaying due to it not being fun. The one thing wrong with golf is its too serious, and hence the reason why I loved watching the Tour guys struggle at Chambers Bay.

So to answer your question:

GUR, Rabbit Hole and puddle I'll take relief. Tarmac path I'd have to have a look at the shot in front of me.

So golf is "too serious" and "decaying due to not being fun" and you solution is to have people playing the ball down in extraordinary conditions?

I think you're a bit confused on what people find fun.  Hitting mud balls all day is not one of them.

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Grass Roots golf = Fun exciting golf, not fairy golf.

How was golf played from its first origins? Obviously I will conform to the way it is on the day otherwise will cost myself too many shots against my compeditors, grass roots golf calla for a much funner day. Especially in a sport which is decaying due to it not being fun. The one thing wrong with golf is its too serious, and hence the reason why I loved watching the Tour guys struggle at Chambers Bay.

So to answer your question:

GUR, Rabbit Hole and puddle I'll take relief. Tarmac path I'd have to have a look at the shot in front of me.


I see.  So it's ok to take one kind of relief that the rules offer without implications of its being a cheat,  but for some arbitrary reason best known to yourself, it's not ok to take another?

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As I said brains when I was watching the tournament there were no mud balls being played, the course was in good condition. Golf is full of sooky babies who like to whinge and moan when they don't get to play off pristine lies. I bet your one of them.
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As I said brains when I was watching the tournament there were no mud balls being played, the course was in good condition. Golf is full of sooky babies who like to whinge and moan when they don't get to play off pristine lies. I bet your one of them.


The course could be in good condition in the morning, with a deluge in the forecast for the afternoon.  If there is a reasonable expectation of needing to play LCP during the round, they will implement it under sunny skies, since they will not change it during a round.  They might get it wrong from time to time, but getting the golf in is a high priority.

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the lift clean and place local rule is often used when the FW are moist and balls finish often with mud.

if you have mud balls on a range notice how mud on the insede send the ball outside and wive versa. very know yet random result.

so anyway the lift clean and place possibility serves mostly to be able to clean the ball not get a preferable lie.

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As I said brains when I was watching the tournament there were no mud balls being played, the course was in good condition. Golf is full of sooky babies who like to whinge and moan when they don't get to play off pristine lies. I bet your one of them.

Until this comment I thought you were honestly asking question, but it looks like you have an agenda.

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Grass Roots golf = Fun exciting golf, not fairy golf.

How was golf played from its first origins? Obviously I will conform to the way it is on the day otherwise will cost myself too many shots against my compeditors, grass roots golf calla for a much funner day. Especially in a sport which is decaying due to it not being fun. The one thing wrong with golf is its too serious, and hence the reason why I loved watching the Tour guys struggle at Chambers Bay.

So to answer your question:

GUR, Rabbit Hole and puddle I'll take relief. Tarmac path I'd have to have a look at the shot in front of me.

I tend to agree with you in principle, that the PGA Tour coddles the players too much for fear of embarrassing them.  However there are times under extreme conditions when the preferred lies local rule allows a tournament to continue where otherwise it would be delayed or cancelled.  The men's club I played with used preferred lies only twice that I can think of in the 22 years that I played with them, 15 tournaments per year.  Compare that to the PGA Tour where it's used for up to a dozen rounds each season, and I think that they are too generous.  An occasional bit of mud on a ball is not a legitimate use of the rule, in my opinion.

Like you, I've played any number of times from a paved path or road when the "relief" didn't offer a playable alternative.

I would, however love to see you try and play on a modern course by the original 13 rules of golf as documented by the Honorable Company of Gentlemen Golfers of Edinburgh in 1744.  If you were lucky, you might get in one or two rounds before you came upon a situation where it became impossible to continue without reference to a more modern set of rules.  Even in 1744 the player was allowed to lift his ball if it was at least "half covered with water or filth", and play it from behind the spot under penalty of one stroke.  The rules then also included stroke and distance for a lost ball.

It must be noted that most play back then was simple match play, and most situations could be resolved amicably between the players who were involved.  They could afford to have very simple rules.  It was when they started playing club versus club at stroke play with a larger field that the deficiencies in the rules became glaringly apparent.

Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

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