Your Honor, Your Honor

**Grumpter** · August 20, 2015

In league play last night I had a new one to me. The first hole our opponent 'won' the tee flip and hit first. I make a birdie putt for a Gross and Net 2. One of my opponents makes a Gross 3, Net 2. They felt we should hit first on the next hole because I had the lower score but we felt they should hit first because the hole was a push and they therefore kept their honors. It was quite an advantage to hit second on that particular hole. So which team should hit first in that situation?

I didn't throw this in the Rules of Golf section because I am not sure if there is such a rule or if it is more of a unwritten rules thing.

Wendy Dominick · August 20, 2015

Is this match play or stroke play?

If it's stroke play on a better ball basis then your side tees off first because you had the better gross score.

If it's match play, then the hole was halved and your opponents keep the honor.

**14ledo81** · August 20, 2015

Flip the tee again.....

**David in FL** · August 20, 2015

If you're playing a net game, the net scores apply. They retain the honor.

**Fourputt** · August 20, 2015

If you're playing a net game, the net scores apply. They retain the honor.

Yep.

**isukgolf** · August 20, 2015

Never understood why going first would be an advantage ... or an honor. Not to highjack the thread, but I at least waited till the answer was provided. :-D

**dkolo** · August 20, 2015

Never understood why going first would be an advantage ... or an honor. Not to highjack the thread, but I at least waited till the answer was provided. :-D

It's a dubious honor, like a Razzie award or being the subject of a Taylor Swift song, haha. But the truth is, someone has to go first, so this just decides who it is, arbitrary as it may be. And I always thought of the guy who scored better going first two ways: one, you have the advantage of not hitting any other ball on a green and having it ricochet off and if another hits yours, you get to replace. Two, it's like playing loser's ball in pickup basketball: you give a small help to the second guy to get back in it by knowing what the first guy did and what happened to him.

**Grumpter** · August 21, 2015

Quote:
Originally Posted by isukgolf

Never understood why going first would be an advantage ... or an honor.

Not to highjack the thread, but I at least waited till the answer was provided.

One advantage I can see to going first is to put pressure on the other team. For example on the same hole a week before it was our first hole of the match and I drove the green (par 4). That would definitely put pressure on the other team. Of course I then proceeded to 4 jack the putt (I had to go through 3 different tiers and the greens were definitely slower than the putting green). However, if you miss the green on the drive it can be quite advantageous for the other team to lay-up to the 100'ish marker.

**DaveP043** · August 21, 2015

@Grumpter , you were right indeed. From Rule 10:

10-1 . Match Play

a . When Starting Play of Hole

The side that has the honor at the first teeing ground is determined by the order of the draw. In the absence of a draw, the honor should be decided by lot.

The side that wins a hole takes the honor at the next teeing ground . If a hole has been halved, the side that had the honor at the previous teeing ground retains it.

In stroke play, you had the lower score, so your side would have the honor.

If you're playing a net game, the net scores apply. They retain the honor.

The only instance I can find where the net score determines the honor is in handicap bogey, par, or stableford competitions. (see Rule 32). Otherwise, Rule 10 controls, and it references "lowest score" and not "lowest net score".

For me, I always prefer to go first, with the idea that I WILL hit a good shot and put pressure on my opponent. The only time I might prefer to go later is when I can't tell which way the wind is blowing, so maybe I'll learn something by watching the flight of my opponent's ball.

**David in FL** · August 21, 2015

@Grumpter , you were right indeed. From Rule 10:
[URL=]10-1[/URL]. Match Play

a . When Starting Play of Hole
[COLOR=474B55]
The [COLOR=474B55][URL=http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-14253,Side]side[/URL][/COLOR] that has the [COLOR=474B55][URL=http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-14253,Honor]honor[/URL][/COLOR] at the first [COLOR=474B55][URL=http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-14253,Teeing-Ground]teeing ground[/URL][/COLOR] is determined by the order of the draw. In the absence of a draw, the [COLOR=474B55][URL=http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-14253,Honor]honor[/URL][/COLOR] should be decided by lot.
[/COLOR] [COLOR=474B55]
The [COLOR=474B55][URL=http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-14253,Side]side[/URL][/COLOR] that wins a hole takes the [COLOR=474B55][URL=http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-14253,Honor]honor[/URL][/COLOR] at the next [COLOR=474B55][URL=http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-14253,Teeing-Ground]teeing ground[/URL][/COLOR] . If a hole has been halved, the [COLOR=474B55][URL=http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-14253,Side]side[/URL][/COLOR] that had the [COLOR=474B55][URL=http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-14253,Honor]honor[/URL][/COLOR] at the previous [COLOR=474B55][URL=http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-14253,Teeing-Ground]teeing ground[/URL][/COLOR] retains it.
[/COLOR] In stroke play, you had the lower score, so your side would have the honor. The only instance I can find where the net score determines the honor is in handicap bogey, par, or stableford competitions. (see Rule 32). Otherwise, Rule 10 controls, and it references "lowest score" and not "lowest net score". For me, I always prefer to go first, with the idea that I WILL hit a good shot and put pressure on my opponent. The only time I might prefer to go later is when I can't tell which way the wind is blowing, so maybe I'll learn something by watching the flight of my opponent's ball.

When the OP said that the teams "pushed" the first hole with net 2's, I inferred that they're playing a 4-ball match play match. Regardless though, in any net completion, your net score, is your score....

**Martyn W** · August 21, 2015

If you're playing a net game, the net scores apply. They retain the honor.

What do you mean by a net game? Are you saying both stroke and matchplay?

In strokeplay, the net score is irrelevant.(the exception being Rule 32)

**DaveP043** · August 21, 2015

Regardless though, in any net completion, your net score, is your score....

In stroke play competition, even on a handicap basis, the gross score determines the honor.

10-2a/1

Determination of Honor in Handicap Stroke Play

Q. In a stroke-play competition on a handicap basis, the handicap is deducted at the end of the round and not at individual holes. In such a competition, how is the honor determined?

A. According to gross scores.

**David in FL** · August 21, 2015

In stroke play competition, even on a handicap basis, the gross score determines the honor.
10-2a/1

Determination of Honor in Handicap Stroke Play
[COLOR=474B55]
Q. In a stroke-play competition on a handicap basis, the handicap is deducted at the end of the round and not at individual holes. In such a competition, how is the honor determined?
[/COLOR] [COLOR=474B55]
A. According to gross scores.
[/COLOR]

Thanks, I missed that! :beer: I stand by my response to the OP though as he talks about pushing the hole. I'm assuming a standard match play 4-ball.

**DaveP043** · August 21, 2015

Thanks, I missed that!

I stand by my response to the OP though as he talks about pushing the hole. I'm assuming a standard match play 4-ball.

I agree, sounds like match play to me too. Also, a belated credit to @Wendy Dominick , who asked the right question and provided the right answers first.

**turtleback** · August 21, 2015

Never understood why going first would be an advantage ... or an honor.

Not to highjack the thread, but I at least waited till the answer was provided.

I do not think it is about advantage it is about having a simple rule for order of play, nothing more. And why, except in the case of match play, there is no penalty - as no advantage accrued. And why even (some) rules sticklers advocate playing ready golf which includes, as a feature, sometimes ignoring honors on the tee*.

*although, since the order of play is in the rules for stoke play, I'm not at all sure how agreeing to play ready golf is not agreeing to waive a rule.

**Martyn W** · August 21, 2015

I do not think it is about advantage it is about having a simple rule for order of play, nothing more. And why, except in the case of match play, there is no penalty - as no advantage accrued. And why even (some) rules sticklers advocate playing ready golf which includes, as a feature, sometimes ignoring honors on the tee*.

*although, since the order of play is in the rules for stoke play, I'm not at all sure how agreeing to play ready golf is not agreeing to waive a rule.

10-2c/2

Competitors in Stroke Play Agree to Play Out of Turn But Not for Purpose of Giving One of Them an Advantage

Q. In stroke play, A and B agree to play out of turn at the 10th hole to save time. There is no penalty under Rule 10-2c because they did not do so in order to give one of them an advantage. However, are they liable to disqualification under Rule 1-3 for agreeing to exclude the operation of Rule 10-2a or 10-2b as the case may be?

A. No. Rule 10-2c specifically governs and permits the procedure in stroke play. Accordingly, Rule 1-3 does not apply. As to match play, see Decision 10-1c/3 .

**DrvFrShow** · August 22, 2015

Match play is a whole different can of worms. If your opponent does not have honors and tees off ahead of you, hits a beautiful shot, you can exercise your right of honors and make them rehit after you hit your shot. Ready golf does not apply in match play.

**Martyn W** · August 22, 2015

Match play is a whole different can of worms. If your opponent does not have honors and tees off ahead of you, hits a beautiful shot, you can exercise your right of honors and make them rehit after you hit your shot. Ready golf does not apply in match play.

Call me a pedant but it is 'the honour' not 'honours' (with or without the 'u' ;))

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Your Honor, Your Honor

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10-1 . Match Play

a . When Starting Play of Hole

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[URL=]10-1[/URL]. Match Play

a . When Starting Play of Hole

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10-2a/1

Determination of Honor in Handicap Stroke Play

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10-2a/1

Determination of Honor in Handicap Stroke Play

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10-2c/2

Competitors in Stroke Play Agree to Play Out of Turn But Not for Purpose of Giving One of Them an Advantage

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