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Handicap vs Average Score


Elmer
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Sitting on the tee box this weekend I got into a debate/discussion with my a few of my league members.

My league handicap takes the best 8 out of 16 scores, but does not utilize equitable stroke control.

One of the members has always complained that his handicap is too high. He keeps an average for himself (he can be a creative score keeper, but that is another story).

His complaint is that he has himself as a 5, the league has him as a 10.

The debate became why isnt your average and handicap the same?

I contended that a handicap is based on potential and average is the average of good & bad. A handicap is throwing out the 8 of your worst rounds and keeping the better ones.

The golfer went on to complain that a handicap is unfair, to which I told him to take it up with the PGA and rules people.

Does anyone provide me with good talking points as to why handicap is used and why it is better than average?

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Sitting on the tee box this weekend I got into a debate/discussion with my a few of my league members. My league handicap takes the best 8 out of 16 scores, but does not utilize equitable stroke control. One of the members has always complained that his handicap is too high. He keeps an average for himself (he can be a creative score keeper, but that is another story). His complaint is that he has himself as a 5, the league has him as a 10. The debate became why isnt your average and handicap the same? I contended that a handicap is based on potential and average is the average of good & bad. A handicap is throwing out the 8 of your worst rounds and keeping the better ones. The golfer went on to complain that a handicap is unfair, to which I told him to take it up with the PGA and rules people. Does anyone provide me with good talking points as to why handicap is used and why it is better than average?

Well, a straight average would only make sense if you were using scores from the same course or one rated identically. Handicap uses slope and course rating to be able to translate a score from your local executive course to one from Bethpage Black and calculate a running handicap based on those scores.

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The debate became why isnt your average and handicap the same?

I contended that a handicap is based on potential and average is the average of good & bad. A handicap is throwing out the 8 of your worst rounds and keeping the better ones.

This is the primary reason.  If you average ALL your scores, you get one number.  If you throw out the worst half of the scores, the average will be lower.  As an additional factor, if you're using the USGA system, is the 0.96 reduction factor applied to the averaged best-10 differentials.  A third factor is caused by the Slope, which generally reduces the actual "difference" by a factor of SLOPE divided by 113.  But simply put, if you only average the best half of your results, you'll always end up with a lower number than averaging ALL the results.

Dave

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Oh, why is it done this way?  Its a philosophical decision to try to identify "potential" versus "normal."  I don't necessarily agree that the system identifies true potential, but it a lot closer than if they just used the average scores.  In my mind, I'd say that if you play poorly, you shouldn't win, so its appropriate to count only the rounds where you played better than average.

Dave

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His complaint is that he has himself as a 5, the league has him as a 10.

He should be very happy! :whistle:

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Really wouldn't matter to me as long as all the league money games were based on one or the other and it's the same for everybody. In fact I'd be okay with our league using average scores if they used an average of just the league scores. It would keep the sandbaggers in place. We have guys in 3rd-4th flights posing as 18-30 handicap golfers that go out and shoot 39 in league and win money for low net and low gross dang near every week. The following weekend they'll post a couple high 90's scores. The low gross in the higher flights is often lower than the championship flight gross scores.

Dave :-)

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It would keep the sandbaggers in place. We have guys in 3rd-4th flights posing as 18-30 handicap golfers that go out and shoot 39 in league and win money for low net and low gross dang near every week.

I'd be awful tempted to escort them to the handicap computer and watch them enter their scores.

Dave

:callaway: Rogue SubZero Driver

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I'd be awful tempted to escort them to the handicap computer and watch them enter their scores.

Ive done it. Even the head pro has to "babysit" a few guys.

Kyle Paulhus

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I'd be awful tempted to escort them to the handicap computer and watch them enter their scores.

I don't know who most of them are but the low scores in the higher flights always seem too low given the handicap range. With people entering scores via the net I wouldn't be surprised if the guys "working" the higher flights stealing the pot post fictional out of league scores. My league scores are usually higher than my regular scores simply because league play is so damn slow. I tire of watching people chase balls and struggle to maintain focus with all the chatter. Next year they aren't going to award cash prizes just pro shop credit to see if it helps.

Dave :-)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveP043

I'd be awful tempted to escort them to the handicap computer and watch them enter their scores.

I don't know who most of them are but the low scores in the higher flights always seem too low given the handicap range. With people entering scores via the net I wouldn't be surprised if the guys "working" the higher flights stealing the pot post fictional out of league scores. My league scores are usually higher than my regular scores simply because league play is so damn slow. I tire of watching people chase balls and struggle to maintain focus with all the chatter. Next year they aren't going to award cash prizes just pro shop credit to see if it helps.


It helps. Less people cheat because they need to go face to face to redeem.

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It helps. Less people cheat because they need to go face to face to redeem.


They currently have to claim money from the pro shop, the league president leaves a stack of envelopes with weekly winners names on it. I'm guessing the credit for overpriced pro shop merchandise will be the deterrent.  The prizes are small $20 and under for most so having to kick in their own money to utilize it for anything but a sleeve of balls or cheesy course logo ball marker won't be as appealing to the cheaters.

I won't be joining any leagues going forward. The silly cheating and the cliques make me dread it every week. I joined two and dues were around $300 each and it's been nothing but grief. Half the time I get there and don't play because I can't find anyone to play with. I've only turned in 3 scores in one that started back in April because the guys in that one all stick to their regular foursomes. The 3 times I did play pure misery due to the slow play 2:40 to play 9 holes on average.

I joined thinking I'd meet people and make a few golf friends. I've played with guys and had them walk right by me the next week like they didn't see me. These are the same creepers I see out there as singles that don't play with anyone but their friends and eff up the pace of play.

Dave :-)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

It helps. Less people cheat because they need to go face to face to redeem.

They currently have to claim money from the pro shop, the league president leaves a stack of envelopes with weekly winners names on it. I'm guessing the credit for overpriced pro shop merchandise will be the deterrent.  The prizes are small $20 and under for most so having to kick in their own money to utilize it for anything but a sleeve of balls or cheesy course logo ball marker won't be as appealing to the cheaters.

I won't be joining any leagues going forward. The silly cheating and the cliques make me dread it every week. I joined two and dues were around $300 each and it's been nothing but grief. Half the time I get there and don't play because I can't find anyone to play with. I've only turned in 3 scores in one that started back in April because the guys in that one all stick to their regular foursomes. The 3 times I did play pure misery due to the slow play 2:40 to play 9 holes on average.

I joined thinking I'd meet people and make a few golf friends. I've played with guys and had them walk right by me the next week like they didn't see me. These are the same creepers I see out there as singles that don't play with anyone but their friends and eff up the pace of play.

Ouch, that's really painful.

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Callaway XR16 9 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S
Callaway XR16 3W 15 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S, X2Hot Pro 20 degrees S

"I'm hitting the woods just great, but I'm having a terrible time getting out of them." ~Harry Toscano

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Ouch, that's really painful.


Insult to injury the cheaters paid half that because dues were higher for championship flight in both leagues. They paid less to steal my money.

Dave :-)

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All I have heard is that at most courses the higher HCP leagues are rife with BS.  I am not sure if that is unfair, but I am sure this harder to police than the low HCP flights.

Vishal S.

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His complaint is that he has himself as a 5, the league has him as a 10.

Doesn't seem like a complaint to me ;-)

That's some good sandbagging.

Mike McLoughlin

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They currently have to claim money from the pro shop, the league president leaves a stack of envelopes with weekly winners names on it. I'm guessing the credit for overpriced pro shop merchandise will be the deterrent.  The prizes are small $20 and under for most so having to kick in their own money to utilize it for anything but a sleeve of balls or cheesy course logo ball marker won't be as appealing to the cheaters.

I won't be joining any leagues going forward. The silly cheating and the cliques make me dread it every week. I joined two and dues were around $300 each and it's been nothing but grief. Half the time I get there and don't play because I can't find anyone to play with. I've only turned in 3 scores in one that started back in April because the guys in that one all stick to their regular foursomes. The 3 times I did play pure misery due to the slow play 2:40 to play 9 holes on average.

I joined thinking I'd meet people and make a few golf friends. I've played with guys and had them walk right by me the next week like they didn't see me. These are the same creepers I see out there as singles that don't play with anyone but their friends and eff up the pace of play.

I had been pushing my father to let me play with him in his league because we don't really spend much time together. Other than spending time with him I really regret joining the league. The course is crap, it takes forever to play the 9 holes, people play "league rules", there's no real rewards other than skins which are won by the same people all the time, and I'm stuck being around people who are constantly smoking marijuana.... I've found myself hoping that he quits the league soon but at the same time I know that would just mean we would spend less time hanging out.

KICK THE FLIP!!

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Really wouldn't matter to me as long as all the league money games were based on one or the other and it's the same for everybody. In fact I'd be okay with our league using average scores if they used an average of just the league scores. It would keep the sandbaggers in place. We have guys in 3rd-4th flights posing as 18-30 handicap golfers that go out and shoot 39 in league and win money for low net and low gross dang near every week. The following weekend they'll post a couple high 90's scores. The low gross in the higher flights is often lower than the championship flight gross scores.


I avoid the $$$ games altogether. I am there to (hopefully) beat people on the course not take their money. Both of my leagues have been pretty good. A few sour Gus's in each league but for the most part everyone has been pretty good. We do have one team that is known to sandbag which sucks but those things can be tough to prove. Watched a 20 handicap get pissed off when he shot in the low 40's and another guy got bent when my partner shot his handicap for the 9-hole round. Other than that I have really enjoyed most of the people in both leagues.

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I had been pushing my father to let me play with him in his league because we don't really spend much time together. Other than spending time with him I really regret joining the league. The course is crap, it takes forever to play the 9 holes, people play "league rules", there's no real rewards other than skins which are won by the same people all the time, and I'm stuck being around people who are constantly smoking marijuana.... I've found myself hoping that he quits the league soon but at the same time I know that would just mean we would spend less time hanging out.


Seems like the easiest path would be to hopefully convince your father to join a different league and course with you. Hope you can work it out because I know hard it is getting my schedule to line up with my fathers.

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