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What do you consider the most stupid rule in golf? - Page 17

post #289 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post

A little clarification to be sure ... Does "indicated to him by anyone" mean that I could ask an opponent to do so (or offer) without it being considered asking for (or giving) advice?

OK, went online and got that answered as well.  (Pretty obvious when you see the whole rule, and its under the section titled "Advice; Indicating line of play.")

post #290 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by showtime583 View Post

 

Thanks Erik. To clarify, this would be a two-stroke penalty in stroke play or loss of hole in match play?

 

In stroke play, if he hits the green with his second shot, he would then be putting for a 5 instead of a 3?

Yes.  http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-08/

post #291 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

That's not the same rule. You don't have someone hold a club across your chest as you swing.

 

thx... that makes sense

post #292 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by showtime583 View Post

 

Thanks Erik. To clarify, this would be a two-stroke penalty in stroke play or loss of hole in match play?

 

In stroke play, if he hits the green with his second shot, he would then be putting for a 5 instead of a 3?


Precisely. As you said, loss of hole for match play, 2 strokes for stroke play.

 

That said, if its a friendly match, and either you or your playing partners are new, I would reccomend the use of aides to line up until you learn to do it by eye (But only if you arent turning in the card). I say this, because when I was a new player, and a lot of new players I have played with, one of the biggest problems they have outside of the golf swing is proper alignment. I can't tell you how many times i've seen a new player hit a nice shot directly where they were aiming, but thought they were lined up to another area, and think they had hit a bad shot. So what I started doing with my 'little Brother' (big brother, big sister program) is letting him line himself up, telling me where he's aiming. I would then g3et him to stay right where he was, making sure he didn't move his feet, then lay an alignment rod down where he should be lined up. The difference is often as much as 15-20 degrees. That may not seem like alot, but if you are off by 15-20 degrees, at 100+ yards is going to put you off by a ton (pythagorean theorum will tell you exactly how much, but im not about to work it out.

 

After a couple weeks of doing this with, he can now line himself up very, very well. Its a matter of training your eyes to see the line properly.

 

And while you cant use an aid in competition, you can get behind your ball, find some irregularity within a few feet in front of it, and use the line between that and your ball to line up to. Is it an aid? sure, but its nothing you have laid down to help you, so it is perfectly legal.

 

I dont care what the rules junkies here say, as long as you are not turning in your card, there is nothing wrong with using aids on the course to help improve your game. Lay down a club in front of you for the shot until you get used to lining up properly. Play preferred lie (move the ball to give yourself a good lie), instead of as it lies. Focus on ball striking, stance, grip, and swing.

 

Im not saying to be ignorant of the rules, or to play like that forever. But as a beginner, golf is a lot more fun when your hitting good shots more often, imo.

post #293 of 355

Not being able to pat down spike marks or any other irregularities on the green. 

post #294 of 355

Sure I`m making an educated guess, but do you really think that pros would play three to five footers differently if they could leave the stick in??  I don`t.  

 

I`ve always assumed the benefit of leaving the stick in comes when you hit a shot too hard and it hits the middle of the stick and drops.  Of course, if it hits the side of the stick, and bounces away, leaving the stick in might have hurt you.  Do you really think a pro would leave the stick in for 3-5 footers and hit the put harder than normal?  To me, this seems to contradict what I remember reading on an aimpoint/putting quiz thread that said the hole gets effectively smaller when you hit a putt too hard.  The stick is in the middle of the hole and rarely do I see a pro hit the middle of the hole from 3 to 5 feet and see the putt lip out- maybe if it has an extreme break and it goes from center middle to low edge by the time it reaches the back but the benefit gained from hitting the stick on this putt would seem to be wiped out by having more lip outs because of the extra speed and the times when you glance off the high side of the stick that would have hit the middle back and dropped had the stick not been there.    

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

 

It would change the way pros play three to five footers, don't you think?

 

You're guessing. Enough said. It has an effect on competition, and it's a sport - it's already got a bunch of arbitrary rules. None of them at all are "necessary."

 

 

 

I suppose that is one way to view arbitrary rules.  In my mind, golf would be better off eliminating and simplifying arbitrary rules that have little practical effect on ensuring that the best player wins the competition.

post #295 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post

I suppose that is one way to view arbitrary rules.  In my mind, golf would be better off eliminating and simplifying arbitrary rules that have little practical effect on ensuring that the best player wins the competition.

 

I don't like the "little practical effect" test, and I don't agree that this is in an "arbitrary rule." At least, not any more than virtually all rules have an "arbitrary" element to them, simply because the rule has to be something.

 

In most cases, small rules changes wouldn't have much effect on the scores, and likely wouldn't change who wins. If we changed the rules so you got three club lengths to choose your drop, how many strokes would it save in an average round? Probably very few.

 

Here, though, the purpose of the rule is clear. The flagstick might affect your shot, and the "ideal" game is playing from the teeing ground to the empty cup. The flagstick is a necessary addition that is made so that you can see the location of the cup (without having to employ a fore-forecaddie who stands by it throughout play). It's there, but it'd be better if it weren't because it interferes with the ideal play. The obvious next step is to require its removal before playing your stroke. And, in fact, that is just what was done. The original flagstick rule said it must be removed, but for obvious practical reasons, only when your stroke was within 20 yards from the hole (and I believe the penalty was for leaving it when playing the stroke, not for hitting the stick). The rule varied a bit between then and now, but was eventually changed such that the penalty was only applied when you hit the flagstick and only when playing from the putting green.  (Reference about the history: http://www.ruleshistory.com/green.html#flag)

 

It's a pretty fair compromise if you ask me. We're pretending that the flagstick isn't there when possible, but not penalizing people for hitting a great shot from 100 yards.

post #296 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeg View Post


 

Here, though, the purpose of the rule is clear. The flagstick might affect your shot, and the "ideal" game is playing from the teeing ground to the empty cup. The flagstick is a necessary addition that is made so that you can see the location of the cup (without having to employ a fore-forecaddie who stands by it throughout play). It's there, but it'd be better if it weren't because it interferes with the ideal play. The obvious next step is to require its removal before playing your stroke. And, in fact, that is just what was done. The original flagstick rule said it must be removed, but for obvious practical reasons, only when your stroke was within 20 yards from the hole (and I believe the penalty was for leaving it when playing the stroke, not for hitting the stick). The rule varied a bit between then and now, but was eventually changed such that the penalty was only applied when you hit the flagstick and only when playing from the putting green.  (Reference about the history: http://www.ruleshistory.com/green.html#flag)

 

It's a pretty fair compromise if you ask me. We're pretending that the flagstick isn't there when possible, but not penalizing people for hitting a great shot from 100 yards.

 

I had read that 20 yard rule before and forgotten it.  Thanks for bringing it up.  In those bygone days, it didn't matter if you were on the putting surface or not.  All that mattered was the distance from the hole (How they measured it I have no idea - I suppose by pacing it off, a notoriously inaccurate method).

post #297 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post

Sure I`m making an educated guess, but do you really think that pros would play three to five footers differently if they could leave the stick in??  I don`t.  

 

I`ve always assumed the benefit of leaving the stick in comes when you hit a shot too hard and it hits the middle of the stick and drops. Of course, if it hits the side of the stick, and bounces away, leaving the stick in might have hurt you.  Do you really think a pro would leave the stick in for 3-5 footers and hit the put harder than normal?  To me, this seems to contradict what I remember reading on an aimpoint/putting quiz thread that said the hole gets effectively smaller when you hit a putt too hard.  The stick is in the middle of the hole and rarely do I see a pro hit the middle of the hole from 3 to 5 feet and see the putt lip out- maybe if it has an extreme break and it goes from center middle to low edge by the time it reaches the back but the benefit gained from hitting the stick on this putt would seem to be wiped out by having more lip outs because of the extra speed and the times when you glance off the high side of the stick that would have hit the middle back and dropped had the stick not been there.    

I suppose that is one way to view arbitrary rules.  In my mind, golf would be better off eliminating and simplifying arbitrary rules that have little practical effect on ensuring that the best player wins the competition.

 

I do. They'll ram them in a bit more.

 

And if you don't have to fear a four-footer, that means you'll ram your putts from 30 feet a little harder, too, because if it hits the hole it'll hit the stick and may go in, and if it goes past 4 or 5 feet that's an easy one too since you don't have to fear lipping out as much.

 

Absolutely it would affect scores. Probably a shot a round or close to it if I had to guess.

 

Balls are far more likely to go in with the stick in the hole than not. There have been studies.

 

Yes, the hole gets smaller, but you've got a stick in there to instantly kill the speed of the ball. The effective hole size of a hole with a stick in it is quite large if you can hit any part of the stick.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

I had read that 20 yard rule before and forgotten it.  Thanks for bringing it up.  In those bygone days, it didn't matter if you were on the putting surface or not.  All that mattered was the distance from the hole (How they measured it I have no idea - I suppose by pacing it off, a notoriously inaccurate method).

 

In Disc Golf you are "putting" (your throwing mechanics differ - you can't move forward of your marker disc until your thrown disc stops moving) when you're 10m from the hole or closer. Some courses have a big circle but most just ask people to figure it out. Probably the same way in golf - "when in doubt, take it out." :)

post #298 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

 

I do. They'll ram them in a bit more.

 

And if you don't have to fear a four-footer, that means you'll ram your putts from 30 feet a little harder, too, because if it hits the hole it'll hit the stick and may go in, and if it goes past 4 or 5 feet that's an easy one too since you don't have to fear lipping out as much.

 

Absolutely it would affect scores. Probably a shot a round or close to it if I had to guess.

 

Balls are far more likely to go in with the stick in the hole than not. There have been studies.

 

Yes, the hole gets smaller, but you've got a stick in there to instantly kill the speed of the ball. The effective hole size of a hole with a stick in it is quite large if you can hit any part of the stick.

 

 

In Disc Golf you are "putting" (your throwing mechanics differ - you can't move forward of your marker disc until your thrown disc stops moving) when you're 10m from the hole or closer. Some courses have a big circle but most just ask people to figure it out. Probably the same way in golf - "when in doubt, take it out." :)

 I don't think leaving the pin in would have pro's (or anyone, for that matter) hitting their 3-to-5-footers harder.  The biggest fear at that range is the come-backer, which is a product of a putt not going dead-center - a lip-out or near-miss scooting on past to leave 3-5 feet coming back.  The pin wouldn't help in those cases.  It possibly could on an overly firm dead-center putt, but those drop anyway, as often as not (unless the pace is such that a straight miss would put the ball around 10 feet past the hole).

post #299 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by celticstanger View Post

 I don't think leaving the pin in would have pro's (or anyone, for that matter) hitting their 3-to-5-footers harder.  The biggest fear at that range is the come-backer, which is a product of a putt not going dead-center - a lip-out or near-miss scooting on past to leave 3-5 feet coming back.  The pin wouldn't help in those cases.  It possibly could on an overly firm dead-center putt, but those drop anyway, as often as not (unless the pace is such that a straight miss would put the ball around 10 feet past the hole).

 

 

Not really. It only has to be going fast enough that the ball hits the back of the edge of the hole below the equator of the ball. When that happens, usually it will lip out (sometimes in) or 'pop' a little bit and roll over the back side. I have seen it plenty.

Leaving the pole in is an aid, and should not be allowed in while putting.

post #300 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post

Not being able to pat down spike marks or any other irregularities on the green. 

 

Of all the rules of golf......this has to be the most insane.......otherwise, you can "accidentally" walk in someone's line and screw up their putt.

post #301 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisguy View Post

The "correct fairway" would be the one 75 yards to the left of the one in which my tee shot lies, in other wards, the one directly in front of the tee.

 

I've been playing 19 years and can only recall my ball landing in a divot a few times - I can't recall when it last would have done so.  However, I'm sure there is some correlation between hitting the fairway and landing in a divot that at least partially explains why this event is rare for me, or else this reflects upon the abilities of the typical golfers at the course I play to hit the fairway and leave a divot.

 

EDIT:  wow, it appears that someone has given me an avatar.  I have no idea who did so or who is depicted in that photo, though.


 

I just found my ball in a divot this weekend. A perfect drive into the middle of the fairway. The ball was just into the divot, which means I couldn't see the lower 1/3 of the back of ball. If it were in it's own pitch mark, I would get relief. Now what sense is that? If someone else causes a hole to be made in the fairway, then I don't get relief, but if I 'caused' the buried ball, then I'm entitled to get relief?

 

It may be that the USGA is living in an ideal world, where players always fill in their divots, but in the real world (especially on muni and state courses, this doesn't happen very often.

post #302 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by ApocG10 View Post

 

 

Not really. It only has to be going fast enough that the ball hits the back of the edge of the hole below the equator of the ball. When that happens, usually it will lip out (sometimes in) or 'pop' a little bit and roll over the back side. I have seen it plenty.

Leaving the pole in is an aid, and should not be allowed in while putting.

I agree with Celticstanger.  I`ve seen plenty of lip outs from all distances and have seen longer putts "pop" the back of the hole and not go in when they are hit way too hard, but I don`t ever remember seeing someone do the later from inside 10 feet unless it was on purpose (like when they are frustrated and hit a one footer with the speed of a 15 footer).

 

Guys who play for the stick to slow down the ball on short putts will start 3 putting these more often.  The only time the stick is really going to help on a short putt is when it has a ton of break and hits the center of the stick instead of the low side back edge.

post #303 of 355

If you really wanted to eliminate playing from divots you could make a rule where anyone in the fairway can lift clean and place on every shot.  I'm not saying this should be done but to all those saying you cannot define what a divot is (which i think is BS, if the USGA really wanted to they would find a way to define it), this is a solution.

Again, I disagree with doing this but I also think you people saying you can't define what a divot is are being silly.

post #304 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fozcycle View Post

Of all the rules of golf......this has to be the most insane.......otherwise, you can "accidentally" walk in someone's line and screw up their putt.

 

Except that the rules permit you to repair the damage in the case that someone steps on your line or to request relief from the committee if it cannot be repaired (Decision 16-1a/13).

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post

I agree with Celticstanger.  I`ve seen plenty of lip outs from all distances and have seen longer putts "pop" the back of the hole and not go in when they are hit way too hard, but I don`t ever remember seeing someone do the later from inside 10 feet unless it was on purpose (like when they are frustrated and hit a one footer with the speed of a 15 footer).

 

Guys who play for the stick to slow down the ball on short putts will start 3 putting these more often.  The only time the stick is really going to help on a short putt is when it has a ton of break and hits the center of the stick instead of the low side back edge.

 

You guys are missing the point (MEfree, this isn't personally aimed at you, yours was just the handiest post to quote on the topic). It's not a question of whether it usually improve your make rate, it's enough that it might help you make a putt that would otherwise not have gone in. In the situations where that happens, you have gained an advantage that has been deemed unwarranted. Thus, there's a penalty for it. It's a clear rule, it's not difficult to avoid, and it's never going to invite ambiguity in enforcement. I don't see the big issue.

post #305 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by celticstanger View Post

I don't think leaving the pin in would have pro's (or anyone, for that matter) hitting their 3-to-5-footers harder.  The biggest fear at that range is the come-backer, which is a product of a putt not going dead-center - a lip-out or near-miss scooting on past to leave 3-5 feet coming back.  The pin wouldn't help in those cases.  It possibly could on an overly firm dead-center putt, but those drop anyway, as often as not (unless the pace is such that a straight miss would put the ball around 10 feet past the hole).

 

You don't think it would.

 

I think it would.

 

Leaving the pin in would affect every putt except those on the very edges of the cup. Even if the flagstick were as thin as a piece of string it would affect the middle 1.68 inches of the cup, after all. It's thick enough that it affects more than 1/2 the width of the cup.

post #306 of 355

Is there a legal limit on pin diameter? I remember Seve used to have his caddy tend the flag for short ones also, does anybody else remeber that?

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