Joe Hill

" Please, just enjoy golf as a dude hoping to break 90, or maybe 80, or whatever. Find an instructor, work on your swing, and enjoy being outside in good company." Translated: Sit down and shut up. Me dishonest? Sorry. When you ignore the part of my swing where I showed the various angles I was doing, then post a critique of the top where I had already indicated it had errors, and base my concept on that, I consider it dishonest and a false narrative. When you purposefully omit context of my quotes, "when I execute according to plan", I consider that dishonest, and a false narrative. This suggests to me you have interest in nothing but discrediting me. I do not share your apathy. I do question your objectivity. If I knew nothing of anatomy, how do I come up with terms such as humerus leverage; leading arm leverage; trailing knee keyed for the return (it's the aimer, like a gun scope); directional muscle training (not yet used in this forum)? These are all concepts which use the skeletal structure to advantage in order to not have to worry about sequencing and timing, or what the lower body is doing. I also believe in directional training of the muscles. Muscles can be built, and they can also be built to favor certain directions imo. I'm aware of the triangle alteration due to right arm flex. How much, etc, is still up for experimentation for me. When I turn my head and look down at my arms at the top however, I see the same forearm triangle as at address. When I look at my videos, I indeed see the triangle maintaining it's relative form throughout the swing. My elbows remain down (is Ballard wrong about that? I think he' s dead right), and the mass of both arms are in line with the direction of travel at least from half way down through impact. That in itself is a fundamental concept of physics. Do you hammer with the flat part of the hammer? You can, but you will work much harder to do so. Keeping the mass of the hammer in line with the strike is the way the hammer is designed for a reason. I see the same principle at work by keeping the mass of the arms in line with the hit.

I thought I made it clear the 150 and 144 swings were very much the exception. 130+ to me is phenomenal in itself, being a life time 120 pw player, and considering the length of back swing. No I do not totally agree with the lines drawn. The dark area in front of the ball location at impact is not the divot; it is the shadow of the club head. Watch the video after the divot dirt settles and you will see. How can there be a shadow from the club head from the ball forward if the club head is way out in front as indicated? (the sun was setting directly to the left). I do however, in the same frame, see the paler color of my left leg, indicating the shaft moving in front of it, so I'm not sure. The next few frames of follow through show the club well extended, still in front of my arms and torso, with no sign of a flip. And yes, I'd just as soon leave it be until I get a good swing recorded properly.

I think those a very fair requests Abu3baid. I've already spent one c-note, half a day and half a tank of gas attempting to fulfill that request. I failed. It is senseless to post bad swings, serving no purpose. I will try again and again until I get what I consider a good swing recorded. I've tried to make clear that I am a lousy model for the swing. I wish I had a better model, but I'm all I have. I'm 65, not in good shape, and am just coming off a 6 year sedentary period, only recently taking up this endeavor again. The results when I do execute as planned, confirm to me the concept is valid, and I fully understand members here wanting some documented evidence. Patience with this old fart is all I can suggest. What I will not do is defend myself against inane accusations of knowing nothing about geometry, anatomy, or physics, or respond to admonitions to "sit down and shut up". When I get a good swing recorded, I'll post it as requested.

And I think you are very rude. This is about developing a swing concept, not about Joe teaching golf. I know the concept works due to results. If I'm flipping and getting 130 yard PW, what will it be when I get that worked out? I'll know more when I get better swings on the 3-D camera. If it bugs you so much what I'm trying to do, then please, get off the crazy train.

Session With James Leitz Report All of my shots during the session were this, so posting anything further from the session is pointless. It gave me the incentive I needed to keep the knees level, get better stacked on the right side at the top, and keep the left humerus better leveraged against the rib cage ( I know the club face is closed to it's arc here; working on it): It resulted in much better release: It's a little blurry, but this is right at impact even though you can't see the ball; no divot yet. Taken from this video: This was a dead on target 130 yd + PW. As soon as Leitz gets his 3-D video installed, I will return for another try.

On the plus side, I really felt comfortable with Leitz. I will likely go back, and consider him my "coach". Most importantly, I do not at all feel threatened that he thinks I'm doing things all wrong and that he will try to re-make my swing. He expressed more than once that he really liked my swing. Whether that is just a confidence booster or he meant it remains to be seen. I believe him to be sincere and honest. He is in the process of installing 3-d imaging, which will reveal much more about path, angles, etc., and I'm looking forward to a return trip after making some adjustments. On the negative side, my distances have literally sucked the last several days, and they did yesterday as well. Video revealed club head ahead of the hands at impact as the cause. As a result, I obviously did not achieve one of my objectives. I will have to experiment and try to figure why I'm suddenly releasing early. All in all, I thought it was a very productive session. He is doing voice over and will e-mail the finished product to me. I will share all or part at that time and let you guys tear me up.

That's my intent. I don't know what equipment he has, but it is supposedly top of the line. I will publish the swing with the numbers he provides. I will not publish the entire session because this is not about Joe's lack of proficiency or polish, but about a swing concept. I see no need of further discussion until, so will say adieu for now.

Everyone keeps telling me I'm confusing thought and feel, and I'm aware how easy it is for that to occur, but I see that I'm close to doing what I think. The hand plane is, with a neutral grip, the palms facing one another form a plane which closely corresponds with the spine angle, and it stays in that position throughout, in this swing concept, but not something I'm saying is "proper". The elbow line defines the base of the triangle. As long as the elbow line remains close to the shoulder plane line, the triangle is swinging on it's plane, keeping the mass of the arms in line with their direction of travel. In my sample swing, I allowed club momentum to pull my arms up, which put the triangle off plane. I try to resist that upward pull on the arms; that's my transition. It doesn't seem to hurt much for a little upward movement though, for my arms got right back on plane quickly. All this may seem complicated, but it makes for a lot fewer moving parts, something this creaky old boned swinger likes.

Can We make a deal? And don't give up. I'm getting a lot out of these conversations. I don't mind being on probation. I'll limit my comments on this board to this thread only. That is my purpose here anyway. I want to put this swing concept up to the scrutiny of open minded professionals and swing enthusiasts. I should not be getting the distances I'm getting in my condition and my age, not to mention my lack of polish and proficiency. I promise you, when I manage to execute according to plan, all I do is rotate the torso. I never have to think about sequencing, timing, hinge, release, spine tilt, hip bump; nothing but rotate the torso, feel everything else, and utterly crush it. It's ecstatic to me. You want proof. I'm providing proof. I'm booked with James Leitz for June 5. I want to hear from this membership that Leitz is acceptable. I do not want to hear I hired some hack after the fact. I knew you'd be ok with Gring, but I've never heard of Leitz. If you are ok with him, he's it. Back to the deal, In return for staying on this thread only, may I have permission to respond in my desired fashion, which is one at a time, on this thread only? This is what I mean by keeping the triangle relationship. I have never even thought or cared where the club hinged. I didn't even know until I recently filmed for the first time. Because my arms and hands are reasonably stable, there is only one place it can hinge. I never knew it was over the radius.

Update on the measurement. I booked Ron Gring to tape and speed measure my swing. He cancelled because he doesn't have a launch monitor. He's in the middle of moving, so just mis-communication, I guess. I'm considering James Leitz in Slidell, La. I don't want to travel that far, but will. I hear Leitz is top notch? Does anyone have a recommend in my area (Mobile/Fairhope, Al)?

What other deadly accurate and potent swing can be explained in full (from the waist up in this case) in under a 1/2 hour? I gave every last detail of what I do.

This video explains the "triangle", "hand plane", and what I am trying to achieve with this swing. It should answer many of the questions, but I will go back and answer all soon. Thanks everyone for your patience:

Due to the incline of the plane, which creates what I've labelled the plane width, the plane is seen as an ellipse, not a straight line. Based on that measure, the club shaft at the top of my swing is dead on plane. If the club shaft were pointing at the ball, it would be off plane. What am I missing?

Thanks EJ, but I am absolutely totally lost on this. I'd love to respond to the many questions but I'm frightened to even try. Am I supposed to take all of the questions from all of the posters and put in one post? It seems like that will be a 5 page post alone. Doesn't make sense. Just me I guess. And when I quote another multi post, I can erase text , but I can't erase the box. I'm just scared to even try at this point. I don't know what to do....

Sorry gents, I won't reply until I learn to multi post. I'm not ignoring your questions, etc. I'm having difficulty with several technicalities here. Spell check, copy/paste, are a mystery too. I'll get up to speed, but it will take a bit. Please be patient. I don't want to disregard the owner about cleaning up my posts. This site has a seemingly much different format than any other forum I am familiar with, which I was not expecting.