Jump to content
IGNORED

Embedded Ball Relief Question


JDgolf
 Share

Note: This thread is 1205 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Recommended Posts

  • Administrator
1 minute ago, JDgolf said:

It has nothing to do with out of bounds.

Are you being obtuse on purpose?

He's just giving an example of when you may or may not be able to make a stroke, because the same standard applies to your tree situation.

And @JDgolf, you keep making posts with quoted text but nothing original. No reply or text of your own.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instructor Development, 5 Simple Keys®/Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins • Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 • "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 • Penn-State Behrend Head Coach • • • • • • • • • • :aimpoint: :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | 5SK.com | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

(edited)

 

On 4/19/2019 at 3:35 AM, Rulesman said:

The principle applies to all free relief situations.

The question to be answered is:

'If the situation from which I may take free relief (cart path, temporary water, embedded ball etc) didn't exist, would I be able to make a reasonable stroke at the ball?

If the answer is no because something else interferes that you don't get free relief from (eg a tree or OOB wall), then you don't get free relief from the cart path etc.

Thanks 

Edited by JDgolf
Link to comment
Share on other sites


On 4/17/2019 at 8:58 PM, iacas said:

If your ball is embedded in the general area you're entitled to relief (assuming the Local Rule isn't in effect limiting it to fairway height or lower).

If you can chip out sideways, then the ball is still embedded. If it's possible to reasonably play a stroke in some direction, you are entitled to relief, and then after relief is taken, can play in any direction.

But why would you want to just chip out if you get relief? You could… but why?

"Fairway height or lower"

Wrong, 2019 rules. Learn the definition of general area.

"If you can chip out sideways"

Wrong. Nowhere in the rules specifies this.

 

1 hour ago, iacas said:

You do if you could chip out sideways or backward.

In other words, if the ball weren't embedded, if you have a stroke at the ball that you could reasonably play, you're entitled to relief.

Just because the hole is through the tree or whatever doesn't mean you don't have "a" stroke at the ball.

Wrong

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Administrator
13 minutes ago, JDgolf said:

"Fairway height or lower"

Dude: I'm a rules official, and I'm "expert status" on the Rules of Golf:

13 minutes ago, JDgolf said:

"Fairway height or lower"

Wrong, 2019 rules. Learn the definition of general area.

I said: "assuming the Local Rule isn't in effect limiting it to fairway height or lower."

cropped-rgfavicon.png?fit=240%2C240&ssl=

In 2018, Rule 25 allows relief for a ball embedded in its own pitch mark when the ball is embedded in grass cut to fairway height or lower through the green. However a Committee may adopt a Local R…
30 minutes ago, JDgolf said:

"If you can chip out sideways"

Wrong. Nowhere in the rules specifies this.

It does. It says if you have "a" shot then you're entitled to relief. It doesn't say you have to have only the shot toward the green.

32 minutes ago, JDgolf said:

Wrong

I'm not.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instructor Development, 5 Simple Keys®/Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins • Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 • "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 • Penn-State Behrend Head Coach • • • • • • • • • • :aimpoint: :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | 5SK.com | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Administrator
1 minute ago, JDgolf said:

I don't know what youre saying. All my posts are original.

This:

Screen Shot 2019-04-20 at 7.35.45 PM.png

You kept quoting posts and not adding any response text or anything.

I got your PM, but if you'd care to apologize for the "wrong" and "learn the definition" comments publicly, I'd appreciate it.

  • Like 1

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instructor Development, 5 Simple Keys®/Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins • Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 • "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 • Penn-State Behrend Head Coach • • • • • • • • • • :aimpoint: :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | 5SK.com | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Administrator
10 minutes ago, JDgolf said:

I respect your knowledge, respect mine

What? When? You haven't demonstrated much - you're the one asking the question here, and you just told me I'm "wrong" twice and that I need to learn the definitions.

So how about this: draw a diagram, please, showing the ball, the tree, and the situation you're talking about.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instructor Development, 5 Simple Keys®/Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins • Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 • "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 • Penn-State Behrend Head Coach • • • • • • • • • • :aimpoint: :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | 5SK.com | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

15 minutes ago, iacas said:

What? When? You haven't demonstrated much - you're the one asking the question here, and you just told me I'm "wrong" twice and that I need to learn the definitions.

So how about this: draw a diagram, please, showing the ball, the tree, and the situation you're talking about.

Lol. The ball is behind a tree in the general area, embedded,  interfering the stance or swing. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


12 minutes ago, JDgolf said:

Lol. The ball is behind a tree in the general area, embedded,  interfering the stance or swing. 

 

 

Huh?

It’s easy.  If you would have a reasonable shot if the ball was not embedded, you get relief.  If not, you don’t.

Reasonable doesn’t necessarily mean good...

What are you not understanding here?

 

 

In David's bag....

Driver: Titleist 910 D-3;  9.5* Diamana Kai'li
3-Wood: Titleist 910F;  15* Diamana Kai'li
Hybrids: Titleist 910H 19* and 21* Diamana Kai'li
Irons: Titleist 695cb 5-Pw

Wedges: Scratch 51-11 TNC grind, Vokey SM-5's;  56-14 F grind and 60-11 K grind
Putter: Scotty Cameron Kombi S
Ball: ProV1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Administrator
12 minutes ago, JDgolf said:

Lol. The ball is behind a tree in the general area, embedded,  interfering the stance or swing.

Oh brother. It's not that complicated.

tree_ball.jpg

If the hole is in the direction as the red arrow, the green arrows are still reasonable strokes to play, and thus the ball, if embedded, is in such a position that you're granted relief.

You don't even have to be able to make the stroke right-handed, or with the clubface (the Rules say only that you have to strike the ball with the clubhead).

  • Like 1

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instructor Development, 5 Simple Keys®/Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins • Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 • "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 • Penn-State Behrend Head Coach • • • • • • • • • • :aimpoint: :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | 5SK.com | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

8 hours ago, JDgolf said:

It has nothing to do with out of bounds.

Indeed, it is all about the 'reasonableness' or practicality of being able to make a stroke if the issue for which you are claiming relief didn't exist.

You don't get free relief from anything (embedded ball, cart path, GUR etc) if you can't make a reasonable stroke because of something else preventing you from which you don't get free relief (eg being up against an OOB wall or stuck between the roots of a tree

 

 

The Rule in question says

Exceptions – When Relief Not Allowed for Ball Embedded in General Area: Relief under Rule 16.3b is not allowed:

  • When interference by anything other than the ball being embedded makes the stroke clearly unreasonable (for example, when a player is unable to make a stroke because of where the ball lies in a bush).

This shows that if a stroke is reasonable then relief is allowed

Edited by Rulesman
Link to comment
Share on other sites


16.1a(3)/1
Obstruction Interfering with Abnormal Stroke May Not Preclude Player From Taking Relief

In some situations a player may have to adopt an abnormal swing, stance or direction of play in playing his or her ball to accommodate a given situation. If the abnormal stroke is not clearly unreasonable given the circumstances, the player is permitted to take free relief under Rule 16.1.

For example, in the general area, a right-handed player's ball is so close to a boundary object on the left side of a hole that he or she must make a left-handed swing to play towards the hole. In making the left-handed swing, the player's stance is interfered with by an immovable obstruction.

The player is allowed relief from the immovable obstruction since use of a left-handed swing is not clearly unreasonable in the circumstances.

After the relief procedure for the left-handed swing is complete, the player may then use a normal right-handed swing for the next stroke. If the obstructioninterferes with the right-handed swing, the player may take relief for the right-handed swing under Rule 16.1b or play the ball as it lies.

  • Informative 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


19 hours ago, JDgolf said:

Let's start fresh and simple. I apologise for the formatting:

I made a stroke and it landed in the general area. The ball landed in the general area embedded behind a tree that interfered with my intended stance or swing.

Normally, if the ball wasn't embedded you don't get free relief from the tree. 

I could take advantage of the embedded ball rule and knee drop it one club length around the tree (which gives me a good approach to the green). 

BUT, current rules,16.3, makes it unclear to me:

."When interference by anything other than the ball being embedded makes the 
stroke clearly unreasonable (for example, when a player is unable to make a stroke
because of where the ball lies in a bush"

 

 

 

I don't get relief, thank you

If the ball lay in the same spot but was not embedded, you might still be able to play a stroke to a location where your next shot would have  path to the green.  In that case you DO get to take relief because you DO have the possibility of making a reasonable stroke at the ball if it was not embedded.  "Reasonable" does NOT have to be in the direction that the player might prefer, only that if the ball was not embedded that it would be a logical possibility to do so rather than drop under penalty (as in chipping out sideways, or even in a direction away from the hole which would offer relief for the next stroke). 

If that reasonable tag does not apply, as in the ball is clearly lying in a place where there is no possible stroke in any reasonable direction, even if the lie of the ball is otherwise pristine, then you would be required to proceed under penalty for an unplayable ball.

Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

It was mentioned earlier in this thread that playing left handed (for a right handed golfer) would be considered "reasonable".  I tend to disagree with that contention, as least as far as I'm concerned.  I've tried such a few times, and those attempts have proven that playing a stroke left handed is not, for me, a remotely reasonable play.  Would I then be allowed under the rules to take relief if a left handed stroke was the only play if the ball was not embedded? 

I am so strongly biased to a right handed swing that most attempts at going the other way have resulted in a first swing whiff.  Add to my ineptness the fact that I'm using a club in a manner (either reversed or just hitting with the back of the clubhead) which I would never consider for a right handed swing, and you see my dilemma.

Edited by Fourputt

Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Administrator
39 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

I tend to disagree with that contention

Your own particular skills are irrelevant, as the Rules allow someone to play a left-handed shot. For example, in my diagram, either of the two green arrows might be fine, and if the guy only has to hit a ball a few feet to be clear of the tree, it's very reasonable that a normal person could move the ball a few feet with a left-handed stroke.

I don't think most people face your "dilemma" because I think most people could move the ball a few yards with an opposite-handed stroke.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instructor Development, 5 Simple Keys®/Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins • Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 • "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 • Penn-State Behrend Head Coach • • • • • • • • • • :aimpoint: :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | 5SK.com | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Ok. Lot of you guys just run your mouth and I don't care about your supposed credentials. 

In the spirit of Easter Sunday, quote the 2O19  text of the the Golf Rules, like a Biblical reference, not what you just type as "fact".

Give me time. Its spring and country club caddying season is on. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


On 4/17/2019 at 8:58 PM, iacas said:

If your ball is embedded in the general area you're entitled to relief (assuming the Local Rule isn't in effect limiting it to fairway height or lower).

If you can chip out sideways, then the ball is still embedded. If it's possible to reasonably play a stroke in some direction, you are entitled to relief, and then after relief is taken, can play in any direction.

But why would you want to just chip out if you get relief? You could… but why?

Please tell me in English what the f*** does this mean? Happy Easter.

2019 rules please 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • iacas locked this topic
Note: This thread is 1205 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share



  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • Support TST Affiliates

    TourStriker PlaneMate
    Golfer's Journal
    FlightScope Mevo
    Direct links for Mevo, Mevo+, and Pro Package. Save 10% on Mevo with coupon code "IACAS" as well.
  • Posts

    • I really got caught up writing today -- that's most of what I did from lunchtime until about 9.  That's good news for me professionally, since I got a lot of writing done, but not great for me in terms of my club championship that begins on Friday   But hey, I had a few minutes to practice, I made use of them. Day 155.  A half dozen each of quarter PW, quarter 8I, full swing 6-Iron.  Real balls, indoors, off a mat, into a net. 
    • Day 14: Today I practiced three times, each about 10-15 minutes, in the morning, before dinner, and before bed. Each time it was the same thing, swings from A2 to P6 or whatever the club horizontal after impact is. It's extremely frustrating to do this and continue to have a shut club face. I tried presetting at the delivery position, where I _know_ the face is correct, and I still find some way to shut it coming to impact. My belief is that it's excessive arm or forearm rotation that I do without knowing it, but I'm not sure. I need to record some of these swings and look. When I swing in a mirror, I know I do it "correctly," but those aren't real swings where I'm hitting a ball. There is a parasite in there somewhere, and I have to find it.   
    • 😄 My breath is smelling better today...
    • YES! authentic caesar dressing is the best.  To me, it's like making authentic carbonara. 
    • Time for the 2023 NCAA football primer! NCAA College Football Coaches Poll | USA Today Sports The USA TODAY Sports football coaches poll is conducted weekly throughout the NCAA college football regular season. See the Top 25 rankings from the head coaches. Latest recruiting rankings... A few more seasons of this, and ND is back!  2023 Recruit Football Team Rankings In order to create the most comprehensive Team Recruiting Ranking without any notion of bias, 247Sports Team Recruiting Ranking is solely based on the 247Sports Composite Rating. Some updated news, UCLA and USC petitioned and were accepted into the Big10. A shrewd move my both teams. I can understand from the Big10 perspective that in the modern era of college football regionality doesn't matter as much as it use to. The Big10 and the Pac12 has always had a tie through the Rose Bowl. Also, if we are heading towards few, and larger, super conferences then the Big10 is solidifying they will be one of them.  The next domino to fall might be Notre Dame to the Big10. ND's primary TV rights is with NBC, which now has succeeded in getting rights to Big10 games. ESPN has been locked out of Big10 games under the new Big10 media rights deal. Right now, ND needs to spend about $100 million to get out of their contract with the ACC. Teams in the Big10 are reported to get like $65+ million per year in their new TV contract. So, I could see ND easily absorbing that amount.  I try not to be such a romantic about things. I do not mind eliminating regionality to college football. With the now every expanding NIL deals for college football players, restructuring makes sense to me. I think the current 120+ schools for D1 football should be split up into the top 40-50 teams who actually want to spend money on football seriously, versus those that don't. They can still have football, and still play the upper devision, but they can have their own championship.  Only 13 teams have won the BCS championship or college football playoff. If you look at the top 40 teams who are willing to spend money on college football, close to half come from two conferences, the Big10 and the SEC. 
  • Today's Birthdays

    1. alexfisher
      alexfisher
      (43 years old)
    2. Fkstang
      Fkstang
      (53 years old)
    3. marygujjari
      marygujjari
      (30 years old)
    4. RRTXgolfer
      RRTXgolfer
      (78 years old)
    5. Wanzo
      Wanzo
      (43 years old)

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.

The popup will be closed in 10 seconds...