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cartertheraptor

Bethpage Black

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4 minutes ago, LICC said:

Nonsense. You don’t need to be a scratch golfer to have intelligent reasoned views on the merits of courses. And I would gather that many scratch golfers think Bethpage Black is not boring. 

I’m not saying one does. But Erik finds BPB boring and has presented his reasoning as such. Just as you have. As someone who’s never played it I found it boring as far as watching the tournament play. I agree it certainly looks to be a bear of a course but I found the general play of the pros to be boring. Hit a big drive straight or chop your way to save par.

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42 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

I’m not saying one does. But Erik finds BPB boring and has presented his reasoning as such. Just as you have. As someone who’s never played it I found it boring as far as watching the tournament play. I agree it certainly looks to be a bear of a course but I found the general play of the pros to be boring. Hit a big drive straight or chop your way to save par.

Yet 3 of the top 6 at the PGA Championship were Spieth, Wallace, and Cantlay, none of whom are even close to being long straight hitters. 

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10 minutes ago, LICC said:

Yet 3 of the top 6 at the PGA Championship were Spieth, Wallace, and Cantlay, none of whom are even close to being long straight hitters. 

Which is why Koepka and DJ beat them.

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2 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Which is why Koepka and DJ beat them.

So you don’t like Shinnecock either

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4 minutes ago, LICC said:

So you don’t like Shinnecock either

😉OT.

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Please read what I'm actually writing. Please understand that almost all of this, almost anything you or I are typing, is opinion. I disagree with you. I think the course is boring. I'd give it a 6/10, and mostly for the stuff that isn't "course" related: the conditioning is good, the land is great, etc.

1 hour ago, LICC said:

You said the first hole sucks. My comment: 

Your comment included "it doesn't suck." So my response was "yes it does" because YOU were the one stating "it doesn't suck" as if it was a fact that you "proved" by saying "1 is an elevated tee shot, sharp dogleg with a back to front tiered green, open in front and nice bunkering around the green."

You did not prove that, so by saying "yes it does suck" I was mirroring your own "it doesn't suck" statement.

The truth is that you do not share my opinion that the hole sucks. That's all there is to it. I think the hole sucks. You don't.

It's an opinion, not a fact. Yet your statement "it doesn't suck" implies it's a fact. It is not.

1 hour ago, LICC said:

I described features of the hole to support my opinion that it is a fine hole, and you just came back with it sucks.

You cannot "prove" the hole doesn't suck. It's like "proving" that I find chocolate ice cream to be the best flavor: it's my opinion, and I have reasons why I think it sucks. (P.S. I don't think chocolate is the best flavor. Just an example.)

BTW my roomie this week at The Memorial also thinks it's a poor hole. I haven't asked him his reasons, but he too disagrees. I say that not to attempt to "prove" anything, but to simply point out that people can have different opinions. You cannot "prove" to me that 18 doesn't suck.

1 hour ago, LICC said:

When I noted that, your exact words were: “No, that’s you not understanding the difference between opinion and fact.” Which now you say that you never said.

Oh my word.

I never said that MY opinion was a fact and that yours was just an opinion. I said that you don't seem to understand the difference between opinion and fact, then said that you misunderstood what I said, because you were posting like as if we had an argument you could "prove" to show me how BPB #1 doesn't suck. You can't, because they're opinions.

1 hour ago, LICC said:

You finally just now gave some reasoning behind your opinion. You think there should be more to it, like a fairway bunker.

No I didn't. I just gave an example off the top of my head on how the hole could be made more interesting.

1 hour ago, LICC said:

Ok, that seems weak to me, but fine that’s your opinion.

This whole conversation is about my opinion! Goodness.

1 hour ago, LICC said:

I personally like opening tee shots that don’t bash you over the head to start your round. The “soft handshake” (Donald Ross’ words) opener was a common philosophy back then.

I don't think the first hole is a "soft handshake." The fairway is < 25 yards wide! It's a boring hole, but it's not a "soft handshake" IMO. Lucas Glover made 6 there in 2009, IIRC, the first time he played it.

Screen Shot 2019-05-27 at 8.44.48 PM.png

1 hour ago, LICC said:

I think the visual of the hole is nice

I don't.

1 hour ago, LICC said:

You have an open visual of the 15-17 holes.

That's just the location of the tee box - not how the first hole actually plays. You could blow up the first hole and keep literally nothing but the tee box and you'd still have the visual of holes 15-17.

1 hour ago, LICC said:

The elevation, the dogleg, the nicely sloped open front green, the good green side bunkering, make it in my opinion a fine hole.

I don't agree.

1 hour ago, LICC said:

Would it be better with a cross bunker at 230 yards out? Maybe, maybe not, but the absence of it doesn’t make the hole suck. 

I think it does suck. In my opinion.

1 hour ago, LICC said:

As to the greens, 1, 4, 7, 8, 11 (since the changes last year) and 14-17 are not flat and oval. That is half the course.

1 is an oval. 4 is an oval. So are 7 and 8. 11 has a pimple on it or it would be an oval. 14 isn't. 17 is a peanut. But 15 and 16 are also ovals. Are they literally symmetrical? No. But they don't have lobes or corners or anything. They're mostly oval-like blobs.

And I didn't put "round" and "flat" together. By tying them together you're able to get to nine ("half the course") by adding maybe 4 non-oval holes to maybe 5 holes that, in your opinion, aren't "flat." But you also don't know my definition of "flat." A green that's tilted quite a bit can still be relatively flat. If I take a hardcover book and tilt it at 3%, it's still pretty flat. It's tilted, but putts would break quite a bit. 4 is tilted, but is a relatively flat AND oval-shaped green.

And by counting, you're doing it wrong, too. Pinehurst #2 has a lot of oval-shaped greens, but they're not flat - they have interesting contours, internal and external. Augusta National has some great oval-shaped greens. Oakmont too. Great contours.

15 minutes ago, LICC said:

So you don’t like Shinnecock either

Shinnecock is not BPB. C'mon man:

Screen Shot 2019-05-27 at 9.13.05 PM.png

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The first hole at Bethpage Black is pedestrian.  As is the first hole at Pebble Beach.  Just a way to get you onto the course where things then become more interesting.

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10 hours ago, LICC said:

 

Oh and I added a profile pic. Just from the picture you can see how bored no that hole is. A triple elevation double dogleg par 5 with massive cross bunkering and a green that slopes back on approach shots from the left side of the fairway. A real snooze fest (massive sarcasm)

I completely agree with you here.  An amazing course that is challenging and entertaining.

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@iacas - Your exact words: “The greens are generally flat, relatively oval-shaped, and uninspiring.” You are the one who put flat and oval together. On 1, the green gets wider to narrower back to front. 14 is more square with a lip front left. 11 added contour and became more squared in the back when the expanded that area of the green last year. 

You keep quoting the word “prove” but I never said anyone here is proving anything. I disagreed with your opinion and set forth facts to support mine, which you didn’t at first but now I’m glad you are.  You went down some rabbit hole about proof and opinion when no one was saying anything about “proving” you wrong. 

Ad for the visual on 1, you brought it up. I don’t think the visual of any hole makes or breaks the merit of the hole, but since you brought it up I noted that the visual from the first tee box is pretty nice. You have this habit when I counter your point to respond by disregarding or denying what you said in the first place. 

9 hours ago, Double Mocha Man said:

The first hole at Bethpage Black is pedestrian.  As is the first hole at Pebble Beach.  Just a way to get you onto the course where things then become more interesting.

If by pedestrian you mean a decent hole but nothing great, I agree on both. Neither “suck” as a golf hole. 

9 hours ago, golfonly said:

I completely agree with you here.  An amazing course that is challenging and entertaining.

That’s a great description of the Black!

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25 minutes ago, LICC said:

@iacas - Your exact words: “The greens are generally flat, relatively oval-shaped, and uninspiring.” You are the one who put flat and oval together. On 1, the green gets wider to narrower back to front. 14 is more square with a lip front left. 11 added contour and became more squared in the back when the expanded that area of the green last year. 

You keep quoting the word “prove” but I never said anyone here is proving anything. I disagreed with your opinion and set forth facts to support mine, which you didn’t at first but now I’m glad you are.  You went down some rabbit hole about proof and opinion when no one was saying anything about “proving” you wrong. 

Ad for the visual on 1, you brought it up. I don’t think the visual of any hole makes or breaks the merit of the hole, but since you brought it up I noted that the visual from the first tee box is pretty nice. You have this habit when I counter your point to respond by disregarding or denying what you said in the first place. 

If by pedestrian you mean a decent hole but nothing great, I agree on both. Neither “suck” as a golf hole. 

That’s a great description of the Black!

Are you part owner of Bethpage? You seem really insulted that someone doesn't love the course as much as you. I really think you need to move on. You are never going to convince people who think the course is boring to suddenly change their mind. And they will never change yours at this point.

I've never played it in person, but 5 to 6 hour rounds and having to sleep in the parking lot really are not incentives for me.

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1 minute ago, boogielicious said:

Are you part owner of Bethpage? You seem really insulted that someone doesn't love the course as much as you. I really think you need to move on. You are never going to convince people who think the course is boring to suddenly change their mind. And they will never change yours at this point.

I've never played it in person, but 5 to 6 hour rounds and having to sleep in the parking lot really are not incentives for me.

Technically all NY State residents are part owners of a Bethpage lol. 

This is a golf forum. People discuss golf topics. That is the purpose. 

You don’t have to sleep in the parking lot to play it. I’ve played it many times, usually in around 5 hours or less, and never slept in the parking lot. And the 5 hours isn’t all due to waiting on your shots. Usually the waits in the round aren’t bad except for certain days here and there. It’s a long, walking only course. If you played with a foursome and had no waits on the group ahead for any shots, it would still take you 4-1/2 hours or so, maybe a little less depending on your pace. But it’s an enjoyable time, not one where you are sitting around on every hole. 

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1 minute ago, LICC said:

Technically all NY State residents are part owners of a Bethpage lol. 

This is a golf forum. People discuss golf topics. That is the purpose. 

You don’t have to sleep in the parking lot to play it. I’ve played it many times, usually in around 5 hours or less, and never slept in the parking lot. And the 5 hours isn’t all due to waiting on your shots. Usually the waits in the round aren’t bad except for certain days here and there. It’s a long, walking only course. If you played with a foursome and had no waits on the group ahead for any shots, it would still take you 4-1/2 hours or so, maybe a little less depending on your pace. But it’s an enjoyable time, not one where you are sitting around on every hole. 

Good to know.

As for 'discussion' I think it has run its course for whether it is boring or not. It would be more interesting to me if you talked about other features of the course you like, dislike, etc.

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9 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

Good to know.

As for 'discussion' I think it has run its course for whether it is boring or not. It would be more interesting to me if you talked about other features of the course you like, dislike, etc.

That said, if you go out at noon on a Saturday, yes you will get backed up on some holes, especially the par-3s. Just like at any public golf course in the NY area. 

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51 minutes ago, LICC said:

@iacas - Your exact words: “The greens are generally flat, relatively oval-shaped, and uninspiring.” You are the one who put flat and oval together.

It's a comma separated list. I didn't put the "and" in there. The greens are generally flat. The greens are generally oval-shaped. The greens are generally uninspiring.

51 minutes ago, LICC said:

On 1, the green gets wider to narrower back to front.

I'm not debating this. To me, this is basically an oval:

Screen Shot 2019-05-28 at 7.45.17 AM.png

51 minutes ago, LICC said:

14 is more square with a lip front left.

I've never classified 14 as an oval:

Screen Shot 2019-05-28 at 7.45.45 AM.png

51 minutes ago, LICC said:

You keep quoting the word “prove” but I never said anyone here is proving anything.

You continue to misunderstand that whole branch of the conversation. Point remains: you will not convince me that BPB is a great course, or that #1 or #18 don't suck. The fairways are ridiculously narrow, the rough too long, the options and decisions too limited, the greens uninspiring, the carries to the greens are almost all rough or bunkers… etc. I have my reasons.

51 minutes ago, LICC said:

Ad for the visual on 1, you brought it up.

You did, in post #34.

51 minutes ago, LICC said:

I don’t think the visual of any hole makes or breaks the merit of the hole, but since you brought it up I noted that the visual from the first tee box is pretty nice.

The visual doesn't make or break the merit of the hole. The first hole is a boring, bland, nothing hole. There's no real strategy, no real risk/reward. It's a blah hole.

51 minutes ago, LICC said:

You have this habit when I counter your point to respond by disregarding or denying what you said in the first place.

Have I, even once, been shown to be wrong about what I say I didn't say? Dude, you've misrepresented what I've said multiple times. You once left out the word "generally" and substituted the word "all."

You: "You flat out said all the greens were flat and oval shaped."

What I actually said: "The greens are generally flat, relatively oval-shaped, and uninspiring. There are few that have any interesting contours, interior OR exterior."

I've had to correct you on things I've said multiple times.

I think you New Yorkers are so starved for decent public access golf that you over-rate the value of the course(s) you are able to play. I think that if you had access to some good courses (i.e. if they weren't almost all private clubs), you'd have a different view of BPB. I think you take pride in your "people's country club" which is commendable, but it leads to inflated views of the place. I think you also take pride in it being "tough" or something, as if it's made in your image as a New Yorker or something, which is not as commendable, but which is at least understandable.

But at this point, you've misinterpreted the things I've said on multiple occasions. The conversation has long since been dead, and we're just beating on the horse now. It's dead. Let it go. I don't like Bethpage Black, I've given my reasons why. You do, and you've given your reasons why.

Move on.

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38 minutes ago, iacas said:

The visual doesn't make or break the merit of the hole. The first hole is a boring, bland, nothing hole. There's no real strategy, no real risk/reward. It's a blah hole. 

Not sure if this was discussed, but for me, hole #1 does have risk/reward. I can try to drive to the left side, and have an open but 200+ yds shot, or I can try to drive to the right side, in which case I'll have a mid-iron over trees. Obviously, players of different skill levels may not face that decision. If you can hit a 275 yd+ cut, it's a fairly easy hole with no risk/reward decision to make.

 

44 minutes ago, iacas said:

I think you also take pride in it being "tough" or something, as if it's made in your image as a New Yorker or something, which is not as commendable, but which is at least understandable.

Huh? I think you might want to stick with golf and lay off the armchair psychoanalysis 😉

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10 minutes ago, chspeed said:

Huh? I think you might want to stick with golf and lay off the armchair psychoanalysis 😉

I’ve seen it said. Pride in how “tough” it is. Hence the endless features on that dumb sign.

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On 5/23/2019 at 9:07 PM, Shindig said:

Were there more par-5s when you played it than when I watched it on TV last week?

7 is usually a par 5. It was a par 4 in the PGA. Its a easy birdie hole even from the blue tees. On that particular day, i poured in a eagle putt on 4 and chipped in for eagle on 7. Hit a nice pitch close for birdie on 13, too. 

Sounds like iacas is seriously jelly. Its SAD to see, really. But us gangstas can just go along our way enjoying a course with such rich championship pedigree. 

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23 minutes ago, iacas said:

I’ve seen it said. Pride in how “tough” it is. Hence the endless features on that dumb sign.

It is a dumb sign - hate how everyone take pics in front of it.

The only NYC sign I really like:

image.png.9e68762b49b092acc8f3e97d6f7b6554.png

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