Hank Haney Made Some Controversial Comments, Sues PGA Tour

[saevel25]

17 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

And, honestly, I haven't seen anyone brand Haney as a racist beyond you and @Vinsk.

HUH!! Have you read my comments!!! I absolutely never said Haney was a racist.

See my only comment which I think you misread.

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

I don't know how Haney reacts every moment of his life, but his off the cuff remarks does not mean he is himself sexist or racist. Were they inappropriate, sure. They should be judged at inappropriate and should be counted as evidence of sexism and racism if further instances happen.

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19 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

Michelle Wie called it an example of racism (it was) and sexism (not sure on this), but didn't call Haney racist.

I might not even call Haney's comments as racist.

Quote

Racism, also called racialism, any action, practice, or belief that reflects the racial worldview—the ideology that humans may be divided into separate and exclusive biological entities called “races”; that there is a causal link between inherited physical traits and traits of personality, intellect, morality, and other cultural and behavioral features; and that some races are innately superior to others.

Inherently racism is based on a believe of superiority over another race. Is generalizing not tactful, sure, but it isn't inherently racists. Offending another person isn't inherently racist.

[DeadMan]

27 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

HUH!! Have you read my comments!!! I absolutely never said Haney was a racist.

See my only comment which I think you misread.

I was talking about this argument that nobody is making that you talked about:

2 hours ago, saevel25 said:

This gut reaction to label someone, and give them a scarlet letter, is getting out of hand.

There was nobody that called Haney a racist, at least that I've seen. But they absolutely called his comments racist.

29 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

 

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I might not even call Haney's comments as racist.

Inherently racism is based on a believe of superiority over another race. Is generalizing not tactful, sure, but it isn't inherently racists. Offending another person isn't inherently racist.

Nah. It was definitely racist. He was essentially saying that all Koreans look alike. And, frankly, I'll take the word of Michelle Wie over a white guy on whether it was racist.

And, again, to me, it's more about his reaction than it is his actual comments. People say dumb shit, racist shit, all the time. The key is understanding why it was offensive and trying to grow from that. Which I don't see Haney doing.

[saevel25]

12 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

Nah. It was definitely racist. He was essentially saying that all Koreans look alike. And, frankly, I'll take the word of Michelle Wie over a white guy on whether it was racist.

I take it as he generalized their names. It's a fact that a lot of Koreans do well on the LPGA. It's a fact that Lee is a common last name. He generalized in that context. To assume he referring to how they look is presumptuous.

Also, just because Wie said it doesn't mean it's true. A few years ago a white girl wore a Chinese dress to the prom. A Chinese guy got upset at her. Guess what, other Chinese people said it wasn't racists at all and they like she thought the dress was beautiful enough to wear to the prom. Some may think comments are racist, some may thing otherwise. Just taking Michelle Wie's comments and making her the spokes person for an entire race is presumptuous as well.

 

[chspeed]

2 hours ago, Vinsk said:

Yes, in the moment his comments lacked tact. Guess what world, people lack tact all the time. It doesn't mean they are a racist or sexist.

Sounds to me like you're just redefining sexism and/or racism as a lack of tact.

3 hours ago, Vinsk said:

Had the clap back been making him address why someone who is so into golf and trying to grow it would feel that way and say such  things on air would’ve really put him under the gun. 

No way. Calling out the incident racist or sexist is much more effective in getting press.

1 hour ago, rehmwa said:

He screwed up, AND the generic response to his ignorance once again missed the chance to educate and inform, instead going for the lazy and worn out fake outrage response we're all getting numb to. 

What kind of information and education do you suggest? Michelle Wei branded Haney's remarks as racist on Twitter. Instead, do you think it would be more effective if she wrote an essay about how each Korean golfer named Lee is a different person with feelings? What if Haney had been asked about who's going to win the NBA title, and had said something like "I don't follow the NBA, but if I had to guess, it will be bunch of black guys named Jones", Would you still suggest education or just call him racist? Maybe you're just acting differently because it's women named Lee that are the target.

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

Inherently racism is based on a believe of superiority over another race. Is generalizing not tactful, sure, but it isn't inherently racists. Offending another person isn't inherently racist.

That's the definition yes, but racism doesn't exist in a vacuum. Stereotypes are the memes that communicate racism and on which discrimination and other acts of racism are built upon.

[DeadMan]

26 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I take it as he generalized their names. It's a fact that a lot of Koreans do well on the LPGA. It's a fact that Lee is a common last name. He generalized in that context. To assume he referring to how they look is presumptuous.

You're missing my point. He was making a joke about how they all seem the same to him, using their last name as the punch line. That bold part is the racist part. It is similar to saying "they all look alike." Not exactly the same, but similar.

27 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Also, just because Wie said it doesn't mean it's true. A few years ago a white girl wore a Chinese dress to the prom. A Chinese guy got upset at her. Guess what, other Chinese people said it wasn't racists at all and they like she thought the dress was beautiful enough to wear to the prom. Some may think comments are racist, some may thing otherwise. Just taking Michelle Wie's comments and making her the spokes person for an entire race is presumptuous as well. 

That was about cultural appropriation, not really racism. Not the same thing, although there is some link there.

Again, you're missing my point, though. My point was that I take Michelle Wie's judgment on whether something is racist against Koreans over a white guy. She's actually experienced this racism, and you haven't.

This really is a side conversation, though. The main issue is different. Regardless of whether Haney's comments were racist, they were dumb, offensive, and ignorant. That's the problem here. It's easy to get caught up in the racist aspect of this. But the real problem is that a golf media member doesn't give a shit about the LPGA and broadcasts that fact to everybody. He showed his ass on national radio, and people are getting wondering if he's racist or sexist. Who cares? He's bad at his job, and his comments were detrimental to the game of golf.

[DaveP043]

7 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

This really is a side conversation, though. The main issue is different. Regardless of whether Haney's comments were racist, they were dumb, offensive, and ignorant. That's the problem here. It's easy to get caught up in the racist aspect of this. But the real problem is that a golf media member doesn't give a shit about the LPGA and broadcasts that fact to everybody. He showed his ass on national radio, and people are getting wondering if he's racist or sexist. Who cares? He's bad at his job, and his comments were detrimental to the game of golf.

This is the thing I said too.  Haney was poorly prepared to discuss an important event in one of the major professional golf tours, a tour that is predominantly based in his own country.  Instead of preparing, he chose to wing it, and in doing so relied on generalizations that offended people.  Most generalizations that rely on stereotypes, whether sexual, racial, religious, political, whatever, are bound to be offensive to someone.  

Is he sexist because he's not very interested in the LPGA Tour?  In that case, I'm sexist too, but I don't believe that's the case.  He certainly appears to be sexist because he is a public figure in the golfing media community who chooses not to inform himself about a national open championship being played this week by women, and chooses to demonstrate that intentional ignorance on the air.

[saevel25]

24 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

She's actually experienced this racism, and you haven't.

Reverse racism exists. Claiming I haven't had racism pointed at me is false. Also, you don't know a damn thing about my life, so stop making claims about it.

28 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

This really is a side conversation, though. The main issue is different. Regardless of whether Haney's comments were racist, they were dumb, offensive, and ignorant. That's the problem here. It's easy to get caught up in the racist aspect of this. But the real problem is that a golf media member doesn't give a shit about the LPGA and broadcasts that fact to everybody.

This I agree with.

11 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Haney was poorly prepared to discuss an important event in one of the major professional golf tours, a tour that is predominantly based in his own country. 

Yep, that is the biggest issue if he wants to be promoting the game of golf, not just the PGA Tour.

[rehmwa]

3 hours ago, Groucho Valentine said:

Stupid comment. We would fit right in with the MAGA crowd. ............ .Left to men to be the primary consumer, woman's golf is always going to have to be part pornograhpy to be successful. Which means you're going to need more telegenic blondes winning tournaments or American men will pretty much tune it out..

 

1 minute ago, DaveP043 said:

relied on generalizations that offended people.  Most generalizations that rely on stereotypes, whether sexual, racial, religious, political, whatever, are bound to be offensive to someone.

Clearly people rely on false and stupid stereotypes, generalizations, and caricatures - even when they are virtue signaling.  Strangely enough, 'virtue signaling' tends to be less about announcing one's own virtues, but instead pissing on false impressions/stereotypes of another's lack of virtue.....they should rename the term. 

[ncates00]

I see no content in his statements that constitute sexism anywhere. 

You could argue his comments were racist perhaps. I don’t think so. He jokingly picked a Korean because they dominate the tour. I see it more as him lamenting the lack of recognizable, competitive American golfers as he immediately discussed Lexi and Michelle. 

When he made the statement about “Lee,” I can see it both ways. On one hand i suppose it could be construed as insensitive or stereotyping a name. On the other hand, search the name on LPGA and you do get many hits and many players with the name “Lee.” Could argue his statement was factual- “bunch.” 

Whether he cares or not for the LPGA is his own prerogative. Many don’t and the stats on viewership and sponsorship and level of play demonstrate many feel the same. I admire the LPGA and learn a lot from them. The top players have the same ballspeed for example as me and I try to manage my game like them. However, it is not as entertaining to me as watching the guys play an otherworldly version of this game. 

Edited May 30, 2019 by ncates00

[DaveP043]

27 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Yep, that is the biggest issue if he wants to be promoting the game of golf, not just the PGA Tour.

I'm not sure he cares about promoting the game in general.  Only my interpretation, but he learned to like the attention he got being Tiger's swing coach, he stayed in the spotlight with his Haney Project show, and continues to crave attention, so he's doing radio to get his fix.  He may also want (or need, for all I know) the money that the Sirius/XM gig pays him.  This isn't the first time I've had the impression that he didn't prepare for a specific topic.  I wish I could remember specifics to back myself up, but I just can't right now.

[Vinsk]

1 hour ago, DeadMan said:

But the real problem is that a golf media member doesn't give a shit about the LPGA and broadcasts that fact to everybody. He showed his ass on national radio, and people are getting wondering if he's racist or sexist.

Exactly. This is why despite calling it racism and sexism is better press, I think a much better situation would’ve come out had HH been put on the spot to explain why he feels the way he does. Instead he got out with the robotic ‘ I’m sorry. I highly respect the LPGA.’ Ok. I watch LPGA, quite a bit really. I just find the PGA more intense and exciting. Period. But I sure as hell wouldn’t brush off a Major for the LPGA, especially the US OPEN, on a live broadcast. That was incredibly stupid. 

[jlbos83]

I didn't hear the original comment when he made it, only when they replayed near the end of the show, and he tried to apologize.  I'm not going to try to classify either Hank or the comment as racist or sexist. But the comments were at the very least insensitive, and perhaps offensive to Koreans and women.  And they were not useful from someone who is always claiming to be about growing the game, which mainly seems to be based around bashing the USGA.  He always claims to be data driven, at the least he could have done a quick Google of the rankings, and thrown out some name from the top.  Or looked at results from the past few weeks, or picked a previous open winner.  But, worse than his original statements, when he tried to apologize near the end of the show it was clear that he didn't realize that what he said could have been offensive to anyone.  Of course it wasn't meant to be, most of us don't go out of our way to be offensive, though many of us fail at times.  But he apology didn't feel sincere, it felt like he was placing the blame on anyone who might have ben offended, and not on himself.

I don't know if he should be fired, I'm inclined to give someone one goof.  But he perhaps should follow the lead of some of the other hosts on PGATour Radio and actually go meet some of the LPGA players.  From everything they say, the LGPA players great ambassadors for the game, and if Hank wants to grow the game supporting them might be a great place to start.

[Jeremie Boop]

It seems like a testament to how uncompelling the LPGA is, that even someone most would expect should know at least a little about the players and tournaments only knows a few names, and that it tends to be dominated by women from South Korea. The worst part is him throwing out the stereotypical name Lee. That said, as @iacas pointed out in the post of the scoreboard, it was ironically true at least at that time.

I tend to lean towards what several others have said, that he should be more prepared to discuss these things.

[mcanadiens]

Not racist. Not sexist, but poorly said, insulting and awfully damn casual for someone you'd think would be more media-savvy. 

He doesn't need to be pilloried for this. Most people will just think a little bit less of him going forward.

[golfonly]

In looking at the women's world golf rankings, it's pretty clear that a disproportionate share of Korean women are highly ranked.  I count 9 in the top 20.  I can see how if you are not following closely that it would not be easy to know anything about each one of the Korean golfers except the country they are from. Two have the last name of Lee in the top 20.   One is goes by Lee6, because there are 6 named Lee on the KLPGA.  

Players - Rolex Rankings

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Rolex Rankings’ worldwide professional women golf player’s individual pages, featuring events completed, best performances and form tables.

2019 Jeoungeun Lee6 Makes LPGA Member Debut | LPGA | Ladies Professional Golf Association

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That’s no typo at the end of the rookie’s name: Jeoungeun Lee6 joins the LPGA Tour as a rookie this season. It’s not only not a typo, she prefers peop...

 

[DeadMan]

57 minutes ago, Jeremie Boop said:

That said, as @iacas pointed out in the post of the scoreboard, it was ironically true at least at that time.

Look at that leaderboard again...

[GolfLug]

It read like a cocktail of disdain for the LPGA, at least soft racist stereotyping, fleeting hints of sexism and intellectually lazy, uninformed humor. Ha ha. 

Haney comes across as a master mixologist of the worst ingredients.. What a dumbass..😊

 

Edited May 30, 2019 by GolfLug

[iacas]

2 hours ago, DeadMan said:

Look at that leaderboard again...

Huh?

I think you’re telling @Jeremie Boop to notice that it was the PGA Tour leaderboard.